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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

166 replies

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 19:05

From US HuffPost

My Daughter Got A New Haircut. I'm Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

"Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it."

Article: www.huffpost.com/entry/daughter-short-haircut-harassment_n_6384dd5ae4b06ef4a546c8a5?utm_campaign=share_email&ncid=other_email_o63gt2jcad4

OP posts:
Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 12:05

@Itsoktogiveup

“It isn’t helpful, OP, to say that children should never be challenged. There are plenty of teenage rapists, some of them claiming to be transgender in order to gain access to girls in spaces where the girls are vulnerable. What you are saying is that teenage boys should be allowed in female toilets unchallenged and any adult who has a problem with that should go look for their parents. That’s not right, not leadt because boys of 12+ aren’t escorted by their parents everywhere.”

You’ve gone against the grain here and said essentially that it is right to challenge children/teens aged 12+ in the woman’s toilets.

The rationale for this seems to be a fear of teenage rapists. So, presumably because you think confronting masculine seeming children in the women’s toilets is the right thing to do, is this something you have done or would do? And why do you think searching out the child’s parents is not a feasible course of action?

Do you consider yourself a GC feminist? If not, then is there a particular type of feminism that you do consider yourself to align with?

OP posts:
Itsoktogiveup · 05/12/2022 11:48

Toilets should be single sex. Unfortunately trans activists have lobbied hard for them to instead be single gender, ie if you have short hair and trousers you go in one toilet and if you have long hair and a skirt you go in the other. Ridiculous, and unsafe, but that is what they want.

It isn’t helpful, OP, to say that children should never be challenged. There are plenty of teenage rapists, some of them claiming to be transgender in order to gain access to girls in spaces where the girls are vulnerable. What you are saying is that teenage boys should be allowed in female toilets unchallenged and any adult who has a problem with that should go look for their parents. That’s not right, not leadt because boys of 12+ aren’t escorted by their parents everywhere.

Any distress caused to ‘Jenny’ was caused by trans activists making women feel more vulnerable in female toilets and thus more liable to question others over their right to be there.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 11:48

So why do they have to smile to placate some rude woman

They don't, as far as I'm concerned a girl told she's a boy because she's got a short haircut can be extremely grumpy about it. Same goes for women - no one is owed a smile.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 05/12/2022 11:44

Maybe not all children - as the extended Loudon County saga illustrated perfectly!

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 05/12/2022 11:43

pattihews · 04/12/2022 20:07

All a girl has to do is to open her mouth and say 'I'm a girl' and everything's all right. Butch lesbians sometimes get challenged — quite rightly, because women are allowed to notice and check who's using their facilities. As soon as they smile and say that they're female the woman who challenged them knows and usually apologises and they agree you need to be careful these days.

So why do they have to smile to placate some rude woman - it is hugely aggressive to challenge someone's right to use the lavatory. When it happens to me I don't feel like smiling - more like fucking crying that as a woman with short hair I am being bullied out of using the loo.

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:43

Pascor · 05/12/2022 11:41

There is nothing wrong with trying to keep men out of womens toilets.

Children should be left alone, obviously.

Yes, children should be left alone, and my presumption that it’s often GC activists policing womens’ toilets is a valid one based on probability and supported by peer reviewed, published research articles.

OP posts:
Pascor · 05/12/2022 11:41

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:39

Tell that to @Datun who wants me to come up with something completely irrelevant.

At least my link is in regards as to who is policing womens toilets- which is the topic we were discussing.

There is nothing wrong with trying to keep men out of womens toilets.

Children should be left alone, obviously.

Kucingsparkles · 05/12/2022 11:40

The OP is like a spontaneous squirrel generator 🐿🐿🐿Grin

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:39

ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 11:35

So is this blonde woman telling the TW to stay out of womens’ spaces and not to use womens’ toilets a GC feminist or TRA feminist?

KJK? Afaik she doesn't identify as a feminist of any sort.
And that confrontation is with an adult, this thread is specifically about children.

Tell that to @Datun who wants me to come up with something completely irrelevant.

At least my link is in regards as to who is policing womens toilets- which is the topic we were discussing.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 05/12/2022 11:35

So is this blonde woman telling the TW to stay out of womens’ spaces and not to use womens’ toilets a GC feminist or TRA feminist?

KJK? Afaik she doesn't identify as a feminist of any sort.
And that confrontation is with an adult, this thread is specifically about children.

Pascor · 05/12/2022 11:34

What has that got to do with anything? Is that a joke or did you think it was an actual argument?

Telling a MAN to get out of the womens toilets can be done by anyone, because they are a GC feminist or because they know men shouldn't be in womens toilets.

People mistaking a girl for a boy can be done for all kinds of reasons. If anything, they are far LESS likely to be GC feminists than anyone else, because GC feminists are well aware that girls can and do have short hair!

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 05/12/2022 11:29

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:17

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
You need to learn the difference between an opinion piece and research, as I posted an excerpt from a research article. 🙄

Yes dear. That's an online publication and it's generic article hanger. You continue to show your own ignorance!

READ the article. It is an opinion piece, a study of other publications. Not research, it says so many times! It does no research, it reads the research of others and forms an opinion. It makes no new findings, posits no new understandings. Again, it is self described as a rehash of other studies. It is discussing the need to a change in design of public toilets. It proves nothing! and, as it says very clearly, it's focus is on how "access to safe and comfortable toilets plays a fundamental role in making trans lives possible."

And is shite science however you look at it. "We have shown..." is an undergrad error that wouldn't have got past my lecturers, or me when I was the one doing the assessing.

Datun · 05/12/2022 11:27

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:17

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
You need to learn the difference between an opinion piece and research, as I posted an excerpt from a research article. 🙄

Onnabugeisha

Let's make this simple. Tell me, say, the top three ways a man knows he's a woman. Or just give me three examples of not the top three. Or three that you might imagine, if you have no personal experience. Using every word in the English language at your disposal. Just three.

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:27

Pascor · 05/12/2022 11:18

We don't know it, because its not there, and its likely not true. You think you know it, as it fits your agenda

Nothing to see here. Hmm.

twitter.com/madeleinekearns/status/1505892843247841288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1505892843247841288%7Ctwgr%5E372563ba681a4ee442ecbb489a8b732e08452be2%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailywire.com%2Fnews%2Fwatch-feminist-tells-transgender-activist-who-identifies-as-mother-not-to-use-womens-spaces-in-heated-confrontation

So is this blonde woman telling the TW to stay out of womens’ spaces and not to use womens’ toilets a GC feminist or TRA feminist?

OP posts:
Pascor · 05/12/2022 11:18

Onnabugeisha · 04/12/2022 23:25

Nice try. It’s not TRAs challenging a possible transgirl in the womens toilets or whinging about a seeming transgirl playing on a girls football team and calling her “he” and “him.” It’s GC activists. You know it, I know it. Let’s not pretend otherwise.

There’s no inference going on, it’s written in plain English that children are being caught in the crossfire.

We don't know it, because its not there, and its likely not true. You think you know it, as it fits your agenda

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 11:17

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
You need to learn the difference between an opinion piece and research, as I posted an excerpt from a research article. 🙄

Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.
OP posts:
mishl · 05/12/2022 11:12

This happened to me sometimes as a child. Way before the current wave of trans and non-binary identities. People (usually older women or other kids) just weren't used to seeing a girl with short hair in unisex clothes. It did annoy me but all I had to say was "I'm a girl" and that was the end of it. I doubt any of the people who questioned me identified as feminists, by the way, let alone as radical feminists.

I find it weird that the author of the article is fine with his pre-teen daughter dyeing her hair green and blue. That wouldn't be considered okay in my community or in my local schools which have a policy against extreme hairstyles. Maybe it's a cultural difference though.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 05/12/2022 10:59

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 10:13

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
Accosting a child as described is, obviously, poorly done and the man needed to be spoken to. A man, you notice, not a GC woman, a feminist, yet here you are, admonishing a forum of women for that man's actions. How many other forums, ones filled with men, have you chosen to similarly admonish?

I welcome all comments from those who have actually read the article, which you quite clearly have not bothered to do. The very first paragraph in the article states:

“Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it. Recently, after a long, fun-packed day at a local amusement park, Jenny used the bathroom on the way to the exit. (Jenny is a lovely name, but it’s not our daughter’s real one.) Jenny was met with an adult’s gasp on her way out of the stall and asked why she was in the women’s bathroom. Jenny responded that she is a girl.”

This was a woman, because it’s a fact that it is certain transphobic women (some of whom are within the GC movement) who are policing Women’s toilets. So yes I am alerting the men and women on Mumsnet, as this is a mixed sex parenting site, not a single sex womens forum. This is an issue that should concern all parents as it effects the safety of their children using public toilets.

I am quite happy to see most posters stating that only “idiots” and “religious nutters” would confront a child in the womens toilets. I think I can therefore depend on everyone here, to challenge any adult woman confronting a masculine appearing child using the womens toilets to defend that child from such harassment.

The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again. Not the case per academic research on the subject:

“Gender-critical’ feminists (e.g. Jeffreys, 2014b) often argue that ‘trans activists’ reinforce stereotypical gender roles – for example, promoting that a woman must look and act in a particularly feminine way. In our data, however, hetero- and cisnormative systems and structures (protected by ‘gender-critical’ feminists and others), pressured trans people to act and present according to specific, normative gender expectations in order to keep themselves safe (see also Bender-Baird, 2016). Of course, cisgender women, too, have to meet these standards; gender non-conforming and butch cisgender women are also subject to misgendering and violence in women’s toilets (Cavanagh, 2010; Munt, 1998). Surveillance in women-only toilets therefore reinforces the rules that gender-critical feminists claim they want to abolish. Making trans lives impossible is prioritised over and above creating spaces inclusive of all women.”

Jones, Charlotte and Jen Slater. The toilet debate: Stalling trans possibilities and defending ‘women’s protected spaces’ The Sociological Review, Vol 68 Issue 4.

doi.org/10.1177/0038026120934697

Let me see. I MUST have read the article because I was referring to this part

During a soccer game, the father of a rival player kept referring loudly to Jenny as “he” and “him.” It was outside the earshot of our sideline, and we didn’t find out until after the game. Our daughter’s teammates would have none of it. They checked the dad in real time, admonishing him that “you need to check your pronouns, buddy.”

Academic research has done what? You offer up an opinion piece, an article, is not research!? One that is littered with the words cis and transwomen offered up without question but places 'gender critical' in those single quotes. Full of framing safeguarding as transphobia. Have you not noticed the debate has moved on since 2020, or the 2018 piece that article was based on.

But thanks. I knew I had read, and lost, an article that contained the gem of a reverse - "We have shown how, in their insistence for a woman-only space, ‘gender-critical’ feminists impose a narrow definition of womanhood and ‘female “oneness”’ (Serano, 2007, p. 350), reinforcing normatively gendered ways of being."

This utter codswallop require vertical filing! And you need to learn the difference between research and opinions.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 05/12/2022 10:58

This article is a Trojan Horse. It is just telling women to keep their mouths shut if they see someone who looks like a man in a woman’s space.

If it had claimed that their boy Josh had been challenged in the Gents because he had long hair, well, maybe.

anyway, what’s the big deal? Just teach her to respond politely that she is a girl, if she is ‘challenged’. It will be over soon, anyway, as soon as puberty starts which must be on the cards. Unless the guest writer is planning to encourage her to cut her breast off and pretend to be a man for real.

OldCrone · 05/12/2022 10:56

In our data, however, hetero- and cisnormative systems and structures (protected by ‘gender-critical’ feminists and others), pressured trans people to act and present according to specific, normative gender expectations in order to keep themselves safe

So according to this article, trans people behave according to the way 'gender-critical' feminists want them to behave (if only...). But I can't see any data in the article you quoted from. The 'data' seems to consist of this:

Around 30 people in the north of England participated in data collection including one-to-one interviews, group storytelling, sculpture and performance workshops.

So 30 anecdotes, which may or may not have any truth in them. Great data.

Datun · 05/12/2022 10:50

Onnabugeisha · 05/12/2022 10:13

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth
Accosting a child as described is, obviously, poorly done and the man needed to be spoken to. A man, you notice, not a GC woman, a feminist, yet here you are, admonishing a forum of women for that man's actions. How many other forums, ones filled with men, have you chosen to similarly admonish?

I welcome all comments from those who have actually read the article, which you quite clearly have not bothered to do. The very first paragraph in the article states:

“Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it. Recently, after a long, fun-packed day at a local amusement park, Jenny used the bathroom on the way to the exit. (Jenny is a lovely name, but it’s not our daughter’s real one.) Jenny was met with an adult’s gasp on her way out of the stall and asked why she was in the women’s bathroom. Jenny responded that she is a girl.”

This was a woman, because it’s a fact that it is certain transphobic women (some of whom are within the GC movement) who are policing Women’s toilets. So yes I am alerting the men and women on Mumsnet, as this is a mixed sex parenting site, not a single sex womens forum. This is an issue that should concern all parents as it effects the safety of their children using public toilets.

I am quite happy to see most posters stating that only “idiots” and “religious nutters” would confront a child in the womens toilets. I think I can therefore depend on everyone here, to challenge any adult woman confronting a masculine appearing child using the womens toilets to defend that child from such harassment.

The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again. Not the case per academic research on the subject:

“Gender-critical’ feminists (e.g. Jeffreys, 2014b) often argue that ‘trans activists’ reinforce stereotypical gender roles – for example, promoting that a woman must look and act in a particularly feminine way. In our data, however, hetero- and cisnormative systems and structures (protected by ‘gender-critical’ feminists and others), pressured trans people to act and present according to specific, normative gender expectations in order to keep themselves safe (see also Bender-Baird, 2016). Of course, cisgender women, too, have to meet these standards; gender non-conforming and butch cisgender women are also subject to misgendering and violence in women’s toilets (Cavanagh, 2010; Munt, 1998). Surveillance in women-only toilets therefore reinforces the rules that gender-critical feminists claim they want to abolish. Making trans lives impossible is prioritised over and above creating spaces inclusive of all women.”

Jones, Charlotte and Jen Slater. The toilet debate: Stalling trans possibilities and defending ‘women’s protected spaces’ The Sociological Review, Vol 68 Issue 4.

doi.org/10.1177/0038026120934697

Nope. The entire premise of transgenderism reinforces gender stereotypes. How else would a man ever think, 'know', express, or fondly imagine that he could be a woman?

There isn't a single, solitary thing other than superficial stereotypes.

That's what gender means.

OldCrone · 05/12/2022 10:44

This was a woman, because it’s a fact that it is certain transphobic women (some of whom are within the GC movement) who are policing Women’s toilets. So yes I am alerting the men and women on Mumsnet, as this is a mixed sex parenting site, not a single sex womens forum. This is an issue that should concern all parents as it effects the safety of their children using public toilets.

What do you mean by 'policing women's toilets'? Do you think that women who are not 'transphobic' are happy with men using women's toilets?

But I agree, this does affect the safety of girls using public toilets if women's toilets are actually mixed sex.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2022 10:43

And last night I was watching Star Trek and a transitioned male was cast as a ‘pirate’. But that male was absolutely channeling stereotypical female behaviour.

So much so, with the voice that seemed strangled, that I picked up immediately that this was not a female. The fact that they showed female stereotypes on this way makes me wonder if the writers really actually do understand and did this deliberately.

Myalternate · 05/12/2022 10:41

I’m not convinced that the article is even real. 🤷‍♀️
What else has the Guest writer written? I’d like to see other articles to gauge his opinions on other topics.

I will say that I also think children should be unequivocally off limits…. especially to people that try to influence and mould children they have absolutely no love, care or relationship with.

SweetSenorita · 05/12/2022 10:28

BorgQueen · 04/12/2022 21:42

Funny how hordes of 50+ Women aren’t being challenged 🙄
Most of us have short hair. I’ve seen plenty of Female students at the local college with short punky hair too.

I'm well into my 50s, shave my head down to a number zero and, believe me, I get told that I need to use the Gents' now and again. It's just folk making a genuine mistake: no drama. Once they get that I'm female, all's good.

I haven't ever been assumed to be transgender (as far as I know) but it's widely assumed that I'm either a lesbian or bisexual, neither of which are the case.

None of these issues bother me. If anyone actually believes me to be a male in a female space, I'm glad they're asking 😚