Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine [male] seeming children

On what planet do all kids with short hair look like boys? I never have any trouble telling girls from boys, whatever hair they have. Does anyone, really?

It's beyond satire.

To call this robust and unbiased research certainly is.

Collecting robust evidence from 'group storytelling' and 'performance workshops'? WTAF? I mean immediately that makes alarm bells ring in my head - group storytelling as a means of collecting 'data'. No .... as a means of viewing group think ? Yes.

Sculpture as a means to collect data? Really??

Workshops with performance aspects, good to collect behavioural data on movement and efficiencies etc. But on toilet interactions?

I did read this article, but I could not see how anyone could possibly post it as evidence. However, I await to see why OP thought it was credible and why they posted it.

I studied engineering so am not too familiar with gathering evidence from people. However this is the first time I've ever heard of "group storytelling, sculpture and performance workshops" being used to collate evidence. It's beyond satire.

Yes, children should be left alone, and my presumption that it’s often GC activists policing womens’ toilets is a valid one based on probability and supported by peer reviewed, published research articles.

You have presented nothing of the sort. Not only that, you seem to lack the critical ability to understand the UK population. I know very few women who call themselves 'feminists'. Yet, I do not know one woman who would not feel very uncomfortable with a male in the female single sex space they expected to be just females.

I am not sure how much more you can resort too using your polarised dichotomy which clearly shows just how much you seem to lack any balanced or nuanced thoughts around this issue. You continue to double down with the polarisation and that absolutist language you use that lacks any resemblance of reality.

Indeed the catastrophising, blaming, and rash jumping to conclusions is yet more cognitive distortion you are adding into that polarisation distortion you have fallen back on so many times.

It doesn't matter can many times you say it, it was likely that the woman asking that girl if she was in the wrong toilet was not a feminist at all.

I doubt you have convinced anyone. But hey, maybe you have. Good to be optimistic.

You really cannot say this loud enough can you.

HEY WIMS! SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MALES IGNORING YOUR BOUNDARIES AND YOUR DAUGHTER'S BOUNDARIES BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE UPSET BY IT SO DON'T CHALLENGE ANYONE! EVER!

No thanks Onnabugeisha.

If I see even a teenaged male, I will politely enquire if they are in the wrong toilet.

Even teenaged males need to know and understand that there are boundaries. As a parent of a teenager, I know this very well.

You telling me or any other woman that we should not even ask a male child if they are in the wrong toilet for their sex is just you telling me that there is a group of children and young people who cannot cope with any adverse situation of a stranger politely querying them.

As a parent of a teen with significant mental health issues, if my teen cannot handle a woman asking them a question about whether they are in the female toilet when they should be in the males toilet, I would be asking myself how they are going to cope in life.

I would also be arming them with polite things to assure that woman asking that my teen was in the toilet set up for their sex, without my teen taking offence.

I don't think that I would be adding to my teen's significant mental health issues by trying to tell them that the person asking is doing so out of hate and phobia.

Why would you do that? Who benefits in the end from women SHUTTING THE FUCK UP as you demand? Exactly who benefits. All of the people who benefit. Not just those you wish to distract us with.

And just for the record, all the trans identifying teenagers I know use the toilets for their sex, not their gender. Each and every one of them.

Yes

When I was bald from chemo, wearing a woolly hat & baggy layers cos I was freezing, & looking a bit like a potato with no eyebrows or eyelashes, I was challenged by a cleaner who saw me heading for the ladies loos.

He said “Excuse me sir, it’s this way”.

i did a double take & laughed & he did the same & apologises. It’s really obvious I’m female from my voice (even though it’s relatively deep) & movements.

No harm was done, I didn’t feel a blow to my “gender identity” or attack on my very existence.

I'm just glad people are on the lookout to defend women’s spaces: good men stay out so bad men stand out.

This was nearly 10 years ago now. I wonder if he’d have the courage to query it now.

To be fair, they probably don't realise they're just the latest in a tediously ever ending line of TRAs who come one here weekly to say exactly the same.

I believe that this poster knows exactly that they are part of a constant dribble of extreme trans rights activists to do this on this board. I have no illusions that they are not aware of this.

A 'research' article.

"As one of the few explicitly gender-separated spaces, the toilet has become a prominent site of conflict and a focal point for ‘gender-critical’ feminism. In this article we draw upon an AHRC-funded project, Around the Toilet, to reflect upon and critique trans-exclusionary and trans-hostile narratives of toilet spaces. Such narratives include ciscentric, heteronormative and gender essentialist positions within toilet research and activism which, for example, equate certain actions and bodily functions (such as menstruation) to a particular gender, decry the need for all-gender toilets, and cast suspicion upon the intentions of trans women in public toilet spaces. These include explicitly transmisogynist discourses perpetuated largely by those calling themselves ‘gender-critical’ feminists, but also extend to national media, right-wing populist discourses and beyond. We use Around the Toilet data to argue that access to safe and comfortable toilets plays a fundamental role in making trans lives possible. Furthermore, we contend that – whether naive, ignorant or explicitly transphobic – trans-exclusionary positions do little to improve toilet access for the majority, instead putting trans people, and others with visible markers of gender difference, at a greater risk of violence, and participating in the dangerous homogenisation of womanhood."

If I am reading this correctly, this was never a 'research' article to search neutrally for an open hypothesis. This 'study' had a biased viewpoint that it was seeking confirmation for.

Has the definition of research that is credible changed over the past decades?

Why have you posted it? What is it that you trying to prove with it?

Not only that, but this was a reaction to an article in 2018, and this article was released in 2020.

Do you agree OP that by now, at the end of 2022, males absolutely have no way to have avoided the news that their presence in female single sex spaces may cause distress to female people of all ages?

Do you think any male that continues to use a female single sex space, of which a toilet it one, does so knowing that they might cause a female using that space distress, and therefore does so deliberately?

How respectful is that?

How respectful is it that a male would continue to use a female single sex space knowing that it causes a female distress?

Which is worse:

• girl gets asked if she's in the right toilet

I will continue to (politely and non-confrontationally) ask anyone I think might be in the wrong place.

Yes. It's nonsense.

It is transactivism which has decided a short haired girl is probably a boy, despite everyone understanding it is not a sex signifier of any kind.

Poor Judi Dench, Sharon Stone, Halle Berry and Audrey Hepburn.

The op is trying to stop men being challenged in women's spaces and using girl children as a woefully transparent tool.

To be fair, they probably don't realise they're just the latest in a tediously ever ending line of TRAs who come one here weekly to say exactly the same.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine seeming children in the women’s toilets is the right thing to do, is this something you have done or would do?

Yes. I would ask if they were in the right space for them if I honestly thought that this was a teenaged boy.

As usual, it is the absolutist and polarised view of the OP that is coming through here. Not one of a reasonable person.

OF COURSE if a person looks like a teenaged boy, a person may mention it is the women's toilet. What world do we live in that women - mother's of teenager and children included, cannot mention to someone that they might be in the wrong toilet thinking it is an honest error?

Should these women 'confront' in an aggressive way? No. Should they make an argument with a teenager about it? No, unless there was need to, in that the woman witnessed something that was inappropriate.

But the constant framing of women asking questions that are important to safeguarding their spaces for all females as being 'confrontations' and 'aggressive' is a well known silencing tactic.

The only thing that has changed is the volume of girls with short hair - practically negligible now, it wasn't that uncommon when I was a lass.

This 80s and 90 it wasn't uncommon at all.

Now my DC at secondary all the girls have long hair unless they decide they are trans, non binary or lesbians - it's like they've been taught that hair length and sexuality/gender are linked.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine [male] seeming children

This nonsense thread is founded upon the idea that girls with short hair appear male. They don't. At least to people with eyes who haven't had their brains eaten entirely by trans bullshit. Why in all the hells would anyone who hasn't had their brain eaten by genderism (or perhaps some other kind of patriarchal religion that has conservative gender roles) assume a short haired young girl is male? Short haired girls look just as female as long haired girls. And all the "transgirls" (i.e. males) I've ever seen had long hair.

Hair length is a gender signifier (at least in the e backward narrow-minded stereotype-addled world of genderists.) Hair length is not a sexually dimorphic feature. How is it even possible that you don't understand this? This thread is astonishing.

Nope. You replied to

"The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again."

With:

"Not the case per academic research on the subject:"

We're discussing gender stereotyping. In this case, short hair. My point is that gender ideology utterly relies on gender stereotyping to exist. It cant operate without it. I invited you to come up with any premise for a man to claim he's a woman.

You can't do it without using stereotypes. You didn't even attempt it.

It is transactivists and their commitment to enforcing gender stereotypes which leads to short hair = male.

Not gender critical women.

The blame lies with transactivism. Which is, of course, why it is challenged on here.

You might take comfort from understanding that if gender critical viewpoints prevail, people will be far more confident that sex segregation means just that and hair and clothes will be totally irrelevant to which one you use.

You’ve gone against the grain here and said essentially that it is right to challenge children/teens aged 12+ in the woman’s toilets.

What grain? We are all women, discussing your OP. We are not an organisation.

The rationale for this seems to be a fear of teenage rapists. No. As ever, the 'rationale' is that sometime sex matters and single sex spaces are required. The existence of teen rapists is one reason why!

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine seeming children in the women’s toilets is the right thing to do, is this something you have done or would do? That's pretty much the same "So we have shown" malarkey in the article you posted. See also "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Single sex spaces need to remain single sex. The only people who transgress this are people who need to be ejected from such spaces. Male, female, old or young!

And why do you think searching out the child’s parents is not a feasible course of action? I refer you to the Ludon County case.

Do you consider yourself a GC feminist? If not, then is there a particular type of feminism that you do consider yourself to align with? Why? Are women without any particular politics not to be heard?

I wondered how long my post would stay up. Here it is again, with the offending words/phrases edited to something which might be allowed.

What does a 50-year-old 'transwoman' in the women's toilets have to do with short-haired girls using women's toilets?

But you're showing how this movement works. Using children as human shields for adult males who identify as women.

GC activists may be "policing" womens toilets to keep adult men out of them. Not from teenage girls with short hair. GC activists can tell what a girl is better than most people.

Blame the men for being in the womens toilets, nobody would need to police the jacks if they would keep the fuck out of them.

What? You find it hugely aggressive that someone might think that you are in the wrong toilet and mention it?

You find it hugely aggressive that a person with poor eyesight doesn't see the female cues of your face and body?

You find it hugely aggressive that women now are in a position that they no longer have the confidence that any person entering into the female single sex toilet is female and that males respect the needs of females enough to find other solutions for their toileting needs?

I would be again laying the blame for that at the door of those males who have created a situation where they demanded access to female single sex spaces. I would not be blaming feminists for this situation.

I've had hair of all lengths, and been thought a boy (before puberty) often enough.

I've been challenged in the women's once (many, many years ago), and I just said I was a girl and all was fine. I've been challenged in the mens and I've blushed, said thankyou, excused myself and headed to the women's

I wouldn't characterise any of the encounters as aggressive, just very normal 'are you sure you're in the right place' conversations.

And there's the thing. 30 years ago, we all knew that's all they were. Now, if there's a bloke in the ladies, perhaps it's not a mistake, perhaps he actually intends to be there - and that's what's caused a change in challenge maybe?

I find this very confusing. I was a teen in the sixties, just before the fashion for long straight hair. All of my young life I had been criticised and heavily persuaded towards cutting my long hair (long enough to sit on, very long single plait etc) but I did not give in. Most girls in the fifties and sixties - and most women - had short hair, very short hair in some cases, nearly what used to be called a shingle. Not till the early seventies did the fashion for long hair re-appear - mainly on men. So why is it now assumed that someone with short hair is male? All through the twentieth century women were encouraged to cut their hair - makes more money for hair stylists, I think, and even now older women generally have short hair - and it was also seen as liberating (long hair takes a lot of work) as well as hygeinic in the sense you were less likely to pick up head lice.

It isn’t helpful, OP, to say that children should never be challenged.

It certainly may be occasionally necessary to challenge someone else's child because of their behavior , not their appearance.

Do you consider yourself a GC feminist? If not, then is there a particular type of feminism that you do consider yourself to align with?

Is there a type of feminism which isn't critical of the idea of gender stereotypes?