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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour would add "legal but harmful" BACK into the online bill

80 replies

ResisterRex · 04/12/2022 10:43

Of course they would. FFS

order-order.com/2022/12/04/phillipson-labour-would-restore-legal-but-harmful-clause-for-online-content/

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DaSilvaP · 06/12/2022 14:55

MargaritaPie · 04/12/2022 17:09

Do you honestly think people with gender-critical views living in the UK are "being silenced"?

JK Rowling has just short of 14M followers and every opinion she has is published by the daily mail for one example.

When Kathleen Stock left her role in the college, she spent over a month on TV/newspapers/radio etc daily as a platform for her views as another example.

Do you honestly think that there is "freedom" when the ONLY people that can voice their opinion are people with enough "fuck-you money" to ignore the baying mob whose "reasoned arguments" boil down to only threats and insults?

While the vast majority is reduced to silence by means of economic coercion?

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 14:27

Article I've spied today

www.ft.com/content/5b0b84c1-3edf-4286-9b02-b35835a90bb1
French Pornhub case shows how hard it is to regulate the internet
The challenge over privacy demonstrates that implementing new safety laws is not always straightforward

In October, a French court decided that a constitutional challenge raised by the controversial website Pornhub may proceed against a law which allows the blocking of porn sites that fail to prevent access by children. In 2020 the government amended the criminal code to specify that the use of age declaration tools (“click here if you are over 18”) will not be sufficient. New legislation empowered France’s online content regulator, Arcom, to seek blocking orders against websites that don’t implement robust age gating.

But at present there is no age verification technology that French authorities consider both effective and privacy preserving. Arcom is supposed to publish guidelines on compliant tools, but hasn’t. However, it served enforcement notices last year against five free-to-view porn sites, including Pornhub, giving them 15 days to replace their age model, or risk being blocked. The websites’ lawyers claim that attempts to engage in discussion were ignored. The sites took no action and so blocking proceedings were initiated.

Like it or not, it is understandable that faced with the choice of adopting ineffective age verification tools that might compromise user privacy, or being blocked, Pornhub’s owner MG Freesites opted to challenge the law. The court agreed that there was a question to be tried and the challenge is proceeding. And so, more than two years after the French law was toughened, a pressing social problem persists.

The article them talks about the conflict between privacy and Internet surveillance concerns, whether the tech is available and effective and anti abuse campaigners which doesn't show clear signs of resolution.

This is really the nub of it for me. I don't know that you can regulate the internet in the way campaigners would wish. Multiple accounts are always ahead of the game unless you use draconian measures which are vulnerable to hacking and discourage participation as a result

MN is the test case for this in many ways - women don't want to use their personal details to identify an account that might ultimately be traceable back to them. If faced with a choice of ID linked participantion or self exclusion out of fear of reprisals, a certain significant % would disengage. Its why MNHQ itself has always taken a fairly fuzzy approach on this one and stuck up for the value of anonymity as being powerful in good ways not just harmful ways.

I genuinely don't know what the solution is, but I do have doubts over regulation and feel the more narrow it is, the more likely it will actually work in practice rather than be gamed.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 10:04

It's arguably a form of neglect to turn your kid loose there

I don't disagree tbh but I also wonder how escapable it is too. I worry because we are yet to get to an age where DS wants to be part of this. Its how kids rebel - they don't need alcohol in the same way we did as kids.

What we have seen is 13 or 14 year olds who have been involved in gaming / online communities and their parents are oblivious to some of the stuff their kid is seeing. Over the years we've met kids and parents at meet ups and thats quite hard as they've been slightly older than us and you can't just say 'do you understand what's going on' though DH has approached them and delicately warned them where he can on occasion. Its awkward as these kids are often prone to over sharing and being more trusting than they should. And if you are over protective as a third party adult, if you aren't careful you run the risk of others accusing you of being creepy. These were really nice good kids, with parents who are lovely and trusting and really would look after their kids in any other situation you can think of. I certainly wouldn't categorise them as neglectful in a stereotypical way. It's more a huge naivety.

The other thing we've noticed is how parents who might think they are worldly wise and down with the kids still have no concept of what's online either. There's all these ultra sexualised euphemisms that that are banded about that are often generational. Think about the urban dictionary and how people of a certain age just won't get a lot of the terms. There is a whole language for online culture that doesn't exist in the same way as real life (even MN has its own user abbreviations that you have to be 'on the inside' for long enough to understand what they mean).

Its a whole world beyond the imagination and experience of those who haven't participated in it. Its like 24/7 cards against humanity as the normal default at times.

One of the major reasons I ended up gravitating to mn was precisely because everywhere else was so full on, sexualised and frankly infantile even when dealing with men and women in their 30s. And omg The Drama! There were consistently massive fall outs and relationship bust ups which would give any soap opera a run for its money. The intensity of it doesn't match real life.

MN by comparison is tame as fuck (despite the nest of vipers thing and AIBU).

I dunno. Like I say DH and I find that we feel out of step with our peers because of it. We have a lot in common with older gen xers and much younger millennials or even gen zers. Some of our best friends have kids who are now in their late teens and early twenties and we can communicate with them on a completely different level talking about gaming and online communities which goes right over their parents heads. It's weird.

pinchpoint · 06/12/2022 08:33

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 13:49

Ultimately the wording of the bill is too broad. It needs to be very specific in what's not OK, and mindful of allowing whistle lowing and public concerns to be voiced.

It also needs to understand the implications of criminalisation and who this affects and whether its in the public interest.

Its well summed up in the phrase: 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist' - who makes that decision?

Sonia Sodha was on politics live last week, talking about this. She suggested that rather than it being about individuals it's should be more about social media giants and algorithms - and how these direct and heighten echo Chambers and thats where the criminality of 'lawful harms' should be directed.

The debate was interesting in that it pointed out that this legislation runs the risk of needing vast censorship monitoring - which only the social media giants could manage. Thus driving smaller social media outfits out of business (hello mn) and its the algorithms which are driving a lot of this to begin with.

You have to ask a question here. The case that this has sprung from has been the suicide of a teenage girl. She didn't wake up one morning and decide to kill herself. It was a process of almost channelling her through a maze of gates to sources that amplified the same message. You don't start in that place - you go through a journey through online referrals to get to that. That for me is what you need to consider more. How do you counter that process and set up barriers, not how do you censor content outright (cos you'll never achieve that).

And this actually also sits next to the big question of why teens are searching online in the first place? There's an absence of counter voices and services both online and in the real world to catch them before they get to that point.

Why are we getting massive waves of online harms at a time where mental health provision and access to support in the real world is near impossible. Especially within a short time frame. The two are not unconnected.

The online harms bill is a cheap way to look like you are solving a problem, when the problem really is that people needing professional support rather than quackery and exploitation and online cultish echochambers, simply can't get it promptly.

There needs to be easy access alternatives available so teens aren't driven to seek out something else.

If it were a physical illness and the solution was a simple drug through the NHS we'd understand why restricting access to the drug (evidence based solution) was the problem. Because its less tangible and understood we say 'ban people talking about harming themselves'.

Its nonsense. People will still seek it out, because the key factors here are lack of access and growing desparation fuelled by people alienated and outside mainstream thinking (because of the self selecting and computer generated streaming of people into echochambers)

I hear you @RedToothBrush Interesting points you raise about the Bill being a sticking plaster for a systemic problem. I agree that criminal sanctions should pertain to corporations. We already have laws against child exploitation.

Perhaps broadband & device access needs to be rationed, or come with a health warning, and an expectation that children are not let loose into these online worlds? It's arguably a form of neglect to turn your kid loose there.

AdamRyan · 06/12/2022 08:02

In tech??!! And what is mainstream now due to the Internet??!
Whatever.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 20:58

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:36

I literally don't get why my posts have enraged you so much RTB. I have said its the scale and pace of change of the tech that's the problem and not that the issues are new.

Surely you can see that tech today bears very little resemblance to tech even 5 years ago?

The pace of change isn't nearly as rapid as you make out though.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:36

I literally don't get why my posts have enraged you so much RTB. I have said its the scale and pace of change of the tech that's the problem and not that the issues are new.

Surely you can see that tech today bears very little resemblance to tech even 5 years ago?

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:27

I'm not naive. I just have a different opinion to you.

How would you police the Internet so that porn using men don't get funnelled into watching child sexual abuse, and in doing so become criminals themselves and drive an ever increasing number of children being abused for porn?

How do you make it so young people don't watch loads of enthusiastic anal porn, think that's normal and end up with girls with anal injuries as a result?

How do you make it so algorithms don't funnel Red Pill/Kill All Men/Pro-Ana/incel videos to teenagers and young people?

You can't legislate for every type of harm.

Don't tell me this was the same problem 20 years ago as it is today. 20 years ago YouTube and Twitter didn't even exist.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 20:17

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:14

I know about gamergate thanks. I've worked in tech for 20 years.

Noone took it seriously then and noone is taking it seriously now. At least admitting there is material that's "legal and harmful" was an acknowledgement. But now that's been taken out because of "free speech" (which we managed perfectly well with print content)

How the fuck are you so naive about internet culture then???

Wow.

You've just blown my mind.

Booom!

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:14

I know about gamergate thanks. I've worked in tech for 20 years.

Noone took it seriously then and noone is taking it seriously now. At least admitting there is material that's "legal and harmful" was an acknowledgement. But now that's been taken out because of "free speech" (which we managed perfectly well with print content)

thepenismightier · 05/12/2022 20:14

Labour are simply reminding us that, however awful the alternatives might be, they are even worse. For that, we should probably be grateful.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 20:10

Gamergate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)

Harassment and Twitter
While organized through anonymous message boards such as 4chan and Reddit, Gamergate harassment was most prominent on Twitter. Michael Salter, a University of Western Sydney criminologist, writes that Twitter's design and architecture was "highly conducive" to such abuse campaigns, allowing Gamergaters to overwhelm users' ability to individually block the large numbers of fake or "sockpuppet" accounts used to send abusive and harassing messages.[123]

Twitter was criticized for its inability to respond quickly and prevent harassment over the service. Within the United States, Twitter and other social media sites are not liable for content posted by third-parties of their service under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (1996), and so have no legal obligation to police malicious content such as harassment and threats.[124] Brianna Wu, shortly after becoming a target of harassment, stated that Twitter facilitated harassment by the ease with which anyone could make a new account even after having an earlier account blocked, and challenged the service to improve its responsiveness to complaints.[125] Robinson Meyer of The Atlantic said Gamergate is an "identity crisis" for Twitter, and by not dealing with harassing users, the platform is failing to protect victims.[126]

Early on during Gamergate, software developer Randi Harper started the "Good Game Auto Blocker" or "ggautoblocker", an expanding list of known Twitter accounts that were tied to the Gamergate hashtag which could be automatically blocked, therefore reducing the degree of harassment received.[127] In November 2014, Twitter announced a collaboration with the non-profit group "Women, Action & the Media" (WAM), in which users of Twitter can report harassment to a tool monitored by WAM members, who would forward affirmed issues to Twitter within 24 hours. The move, while arising in the wake of the Gamergate harassment, was due to general issues of the harassment of women on the Internet.[128][129][130] In May 2015, WAM reported that of 512 reported harassment instances by the tool during the month of November 2014, 12% of those were tied to the Gamergate controversy based on the ggautoblocker list, with most harassment occurring from single-instance accounts targeting a single person.

Everyone knew. No one cared.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 20:08

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:01

I don't know if you are arguing with me, but if you are you misunderstand my point. My point is the same as what you wrote:
"The only thing that has changed is the scale of it and how mainstream its become."

Mainstream availability and use of what used to be "niche" porn is changing how men view women and children

The views that used to be confined to 4chan/incel forums are now mainstream on twitter and YouTube. Today YouTibe showed my 11 year old a video "educating" him about Red Pill. That wasn't happening 10- 15 years ago. YouTube barely existed 15 years ago.

Legislation hasn't kept up with the Internet. And trying to target a fast changing world with wording targeted at today's tech won't work either.

People were saying a decade ago there was a problem. No one took it seriously.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 20:07

I'm saying that we can see how this is going and likely to go even now.

Legislation shouldn't be preemptive - otherwise its open to abuse for 'the things in the future we don't know and yet understand'.

Gamers know how to game. So don't give them something to game. Cos thats what they'll do if you have vague wishy washy law.

Its part of the culture...

What you need is the politicians to get to grips with a culture thats over 20 years old. They should be living within 5 years of the culture. Otherwise they are widely out of touch.

If you aren't narrow and specific with a culture which celebrates gaming the system, you aren't going to win. Trust me.

Janieread · 05/12/2022 20:03

Signalbox · 04/12/2022 12:11

Oh no how utterly depressing. I feel like now Labour know that they are almost guaranteed to win the next election they can get away with putting anything in their manifesto however socially reactionary or authoritarian it is. Lawful but harmful is bad law and will definitely have an impact on women who attempt to discuss their rights.

I don't think Labour will win at all.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 20:01

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 19:54

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan
Read that and tell me that this stuff is new and hasn't been around for the best part of 15 to 20 years.

4chan was personally never my bag (precisely for the reason that it was too much for me) but I certainly associated a lot with people who did and the influence of it was significant in early internet culture.

That influence has just spread and grown.

I don't know if you are arguing with me, but if you are you misunderstand my point. My point is the same as what you wrote:
"The only thing that has changed is the scale of it and how mainstream its become."

Mainstream availability and use of what used to be "niche" porn is changing how men view women and children

The views that used to be confined to 4chan/incel forums are now mainstream on twitter and YouTube. Today YouTibe showed my 11 year old a video "educating" him about Red Pill. That wasn't happening 10- 15 years ago. YouTube barely existed 15 years ago.

Legislation hasn't kept up with the Internet. And trying to target a fast changing world with wording targeted at today's tech won't work either.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 19:54

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan
Read that and tell me that this stuff is new and hasn't been around for the best part of 15 to 20 years.

4chan was personally never my bag (precisely for the reason that it was too much for me) but I certainly associated a lot with people who did and the influence of it was significant in early internet culture.

That influence has just spread and grown.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 19:39

lieselotte · 05/12/2022 19:34

Even without the "legal but harmful" wording, platforms can decide in their terms of service what they think is harmful, so if they decided saying women don't have penises was harmful, they could remove those posts. As long as it is clearly set out in their terms of service.

However, there is a new offence going in (which has been thought through by the Law Commission) - the threatening communications offence will capture communications which convey a threat of serious harm, such as grievous bodily harm or rape.

The government is also intending to put forward an amendment which would criminalise the sharing of a person’s intimate images without their consent.

In addition, the Victim’s Commissioner, Domestic Abuse Commissioner and Children’s Commissioner will be added as statutory consultees which means Ofcom must consult with them when it is drafting the codes of conduct that the likes of Facebook will have to comply with.

So there are things in there to help women.

I think the thing for me is just how enforcable this is going to be with social media based outside the UK.

The idea that the government will close down twitter or facebook is hard to believe given that they use both for pushing their political agendas.

Equally, I'm not sure fines will cut it either.

I think this part of things needs to be considered as much as the content of the law too.

lieselotte · 05/12/2022 19:34

Even without the "legal but harmful" wording, platforms can decide in their terms of service what they think is harmful, so if they decided saying women don't have penises was harmful, they could remove those posts. As long as it is clearly set out in their terms of service.

However, there is a new offence going in (which has been thought through by the Law Commission) - the threatening communications offence will capture communications which convey a threat of serious harm, such as grievous bodily harm or rape.

The government is also intending to put forward an amendment which would criminalise the sharing of a person’s intimate images without their consent.

In addition, the Victim’s Commissioner, Domestic Abuse Commissioner and Children’s Commissioner will be added as statutory consultees which means Ofcom must consult with them when it is drafting the codes of conduct that the likes of Facebook will have to comply with.

So there are things in there to help women.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 19:07

I can tell you a pile of stories about skype chat, revenge porn and harassment via facebook which involved contacting work colleagues and relatives and eventually led to the police getting involved. From 10 years ago (not me btw). I can tell you about unsolicted dick pics on pre-twitter chats (I forget the name - maybe msn chat or icq. It was a long time ago). I remember people with sock puppet accounts trying to game Facebook games via Facebook and Bebo. Some of this dates back to 2004. So of it is around 2010. But certainly before I took up residence on MN.

Honestly its ugly and the history of it goes back a long way. If you go off and ask about it on KF or 4Chan people there will tell you how long it dates back and how dark it gets.

The only thing that has changed is the scale of it and how mainstream its become.

Politics is only just catching up with real life - to me that shows not that these are new issues but just how far behind the curve politicians and the media are with this and how there needs to be a lot much political involvement from people who have knowledge and experience of this.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 18:58

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 18:49

Porn today is not the same as porn 15 years ago
The level of rape/death threats made to women today are not the same as 15 years ago
The algorithms that funnel certain types of content to users without any human even looking aren't the same today as 15 years ago
The levels of men accessing CSA is not the same as15 years ago, and there's evidence legal porn is a gateway to CSA

The issues may not have changed but the technology has which has accelerated the scale of the harm.

With VR/deep fakes etc that's only going to get worse

Actually, I would argue what was going on in niche gaming circles wasn't far off whats now mainstream. But thats a whole different story.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 18:49

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 18:41

Not its not better.

As for speed. The issue we see now have been around for at least 15 years. They haven't fundamentally changed. All thats changed is, how people are seeing them now.

If I go back to what I saw going on 15 years ago, none of these concerns in the public eye are new to me. Nor are they likely to change at a speed faster than parliament is able to legislate.

These issues have not come out of nowhere despite what you might think.

Porn today is not the same as porn 15 years ago
The level of rape/death threats made to women today are not the same as 15 years ago
The algorithms that funnel certain types of content to users without any human even looking aren't the same today as 15 years ago
The levels of men accessing CSA is not the same as15 years ago, and there's evidence legal porn is a gateway to CSA

The issues may not have changed but the technology has which has accelerated the scale of the harm.

With VR/deep fakes etc that's only going to get worse

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 18:41

Not its not better.

As for speed. The issue we see now have been around for at least 15 years. They haven't fundamentally changed. All thats changed is, how people are seeing them now.

If I go back to what I saw going on 15 years ago, none of these concerns in the public eye are new to me. Nor are they likely to change at a speed faster than parliament is able to legislate.

These issues have not come out of nowhere despite what you might think.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 18:30

LlynTegid · 05/12/2022 17:27

I'd prefer the harmful to be illegal, much prefer precise laws not vague ones.

They can't legislate at the speed of harmful content, so a blanket term is quicker and more useful.

It's a bit like the problems they were having with "legal highs" not being covered by drugs legislation

I think they could define "harmful" in a way that makes a law specific enough to be useful. I don't think people being offended would be coveted, if they were careful.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2022 18:26

ResisterRex · 05/12/2022 17:23

Porn in general will be inaccessible to children because of age verification so far as I understand it. Any platform that hosts it will have to make sure children cannot access it.

Porn is damaging to society qnd promotes misogyny and violence towards women so it being less accessible to children is only part of a response