Detransitioners: put the fatted calf away please.

I hope you can find some solidarity here, AliVee. TinselAngel who made the post does a lot to help the partners and ex partners of males who identify as trans.

So this is my ex, Chris/Kris Beck. I was his girlfriend from 2005 to 2010. And I have been Googling because I haven’t known what to do about this, and I came across this particular post so I decided to join. 90% of what he is saying is untrue. The VA didn’t coerce him, he was living as a woman full-time for a year prior to seeing a psychologist at the VA, he was also getting hormones off the black market - the whole story of being manipulated by CNN, it’s all bullshit.

Echoing again the deep, unconscious sexism of society as a whole, that anything said or done by someone born with a penis bears more weight and value than by someone born without.

Yes, even when people know the issue, even when they think they're aware of their own behaviour, even then, sometimes it's hard to drag their focus away from the man in the frame, and back onto the woman where it belongs.

I agree with TinselAngel that this would be more productive and I have been involved in doing this: "I wonder if people who are keen to support detransitioners would be better trying to do it at some kind of collective level- eg encouraging fledgling detrans organisations, campaigning for better healthcare, rather than championing them as individuals. It was partly these people's relentless individualism that got them into the mess in the first place and I can't see how encouraging that, helps.

I also agree with FurryDandelionSeekingMissile that in some cases the cycle of transition-detransition-retransition (rinse and repeat) can be compared to "addictive behaviour" and that initial "love bombing" followed by a drop in attention can lead to "retransition".

The barrage of hatred from trans activists towards detransitioners who question the wisdom of "physical transition" or talk of "transgender ideology" must also have a bearing on the decision of some to "retransition" and sheepishly return to the fold bleating condemnation of evil, transphobic TERFs and "GCs"?

I do not feel qualified to to comment on the type of people who have caused so much suffering to Trans Widows and do not want to bring them into this conversation.

There are some other challenges for detransitioners that I don't think have been mentioned that relate to "collective support organisations", the "gender medicine industry" and what "detransition" actually means when someone has undergone major, irreversible body-modification.

The following is primarily about a) homophobia and b) mental vs physical "transition" and "detransition":
> homophobia-motivated transition (mental and physical)
> transition-regret (mental and physical)
> the challenges of mental-detransition and physical-detransition.

I've been watching this "reaction" video by Shape Shifter, on a a 1985 US documentary "What is my sex?" and just got to the part about 30 mins in where two completely unrelated but very important points are made: one related to "physical detransition" and the other to "mental transition".

"What is my Sex? Autogynephilia Transsexual Transvestite 1985 Documentary"

(If you don't know who Shape Shifter is, read to the end because there is a third "detransition" issue.)

You have to watch this video from a few minutes earlier than the key points for context, so the link takes you to this short story:

This section is about a homosexual guy whose tragic story is very similar to Ritchie Herron's. He went under the knife but was already regretting the decision as he was going under the anaesthetic. He tried to tell them to stop but he couldn't speak and it was too late.

He had paid $8K for the surgery but would need to find $20K for "reconstructive surgery".

Shape Shifter: "But I thought this was irreversible. Reconstruct what? This is just crazy. Honestly, this is just really sad, because it hits close to home."

The closing comments of the narrator are about the irreversibility of surgery: "But no surgery can restore functioning genitalia."

Then we go back to an interview with Dr Paul A. Walker, PhD, "Gender Specialist".

The narrator asks: "Why would some find it more acceptable to be transsexual than homosexual?"

Dr Walker starts to answer, "Many research studies have shown the kinda bias . . ."

Shapeshifter stops the video to comment: "So they just said, like, "No surgery can restore functioning genitalia" so they cannot give you functional genitals. Like, literally, there it is, right there. So I don't know if in the documentary we are going to see transmen claiming, "Everything works just fine, works just like a real thing. Everything went fine, no complications." So why can't he get phalloplasty then? Cos it doesn't work!"

(I know that there are "surgical regret" phalloplasty ops being done on males but it should be obvious that they are not going to achieve a "reversal" to original anatomy and function.)

Back to the documentary and Dr Walker: "Many research studies have shown the kinda bias . . . going on here. Because transsexualism is considered a medical problem (shrugs). It's treated by hormones, it's treated by surgery, and therefore has that "medical legitimacy". Homosexuality still, among some people, is considered a moral problem, a religious problem, it's sinful. Transvestism is considered a psychiatric problem. So if you had your choice between having a moral problem, a psychiatric problem or a medical problem, you would rather label yourself with a medical problem."

Shapeshifter: "So pretty much, some people transition because of homophobia. Because "medical condition" sounds less harsh than "being gay". That sucks. But it makes sense. I mean, looking back, I was so homophobic that I thought the same way."

If ever there were a better illustration of why we need the LGBA as a Support Organisation, including perhaps for homosexual detransitioners. Nearly 40 years after this documentary was made, people are still electing to have their genitals surgically removed to "trans away the gay" due to homophobia.

This comment by Dr Walker about motivation for surgery is interesting: "Transvestism is considered a psychiatric problem. So if you had your choice between having . . . a psychiatric problem or a medical problem, you would rather label yourself with a medical problem."

I am resisting the temptation to divert into further discussion of that aspect.

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Another "detransition issue".

Shape Shifter is a gay male who has had disastrous genital reassignment surgery with appalling complications that have only got worse after numerous "revisions" and "repairs".

He has "transition regret" and says that he has "detransitioned mentally".

However, he has also had so much irreversible "Barbie doll" cosmetic surgery that he is "stuck".

In a previous video he explains that his therapist keeps telling him he should "retransition", ie. mentally, because he "looks like a woman" and cannot detransition (physically):

"Detrans Man Gets Pressured into Retransition"

There are "detransitioned" females facing similar challenges: unrelenting hatred and attacks from the "trans community", transition-regret (sounds so cool, calm and collected but surely equates to PTSD in some cases?), medically-induced illness and physical disability, "stuck" being perceived as the opposite sex.

The female "retransitioner" who TinselAngel mentioned upthread is included in this article along with Sinead Watson but the case of Debbie aka Lee Harries - and the photo - illustrates these issues better IMHO. In this case the background is not homophobia but being physically abused and raped by her father when she was a child. I have left out further details of those incidents in the copy and paste below.

"The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?"
Laura Dodsworth meets the individuals whose stories are rarely told
Sunday Times, July 12 2020

Lee, 62

(Extracts)

"I transitioned when I was 44. I thought I’d be a different person as a man, happier and more confident, but my life was still screwed up. I saw a counsellor for five years, which helped me understand why my life has been so complicated. I thought I wanted to be male. But how would I know what it’s like to be a male? I’ve never been one. I can’t be. I’m an approximation of a male on the outside, but really I’m a woman on testosterone who has had surgery. This is just my opinion, and other people can have their views, but I don’t think there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body. I think that the causes often begin in childhood."

"I hated my breasts and couldn’t wait to get rid of them. I know a lot of trans men bind, but I didn’t because you can’t exercise in the gym with a binder, they are very uncomfortable. So I had a mastectomy a couple of months after starting testosterone. Within a couple more years I had a hysterectomy and ovariectomy, prosthetic testicles put in and a metoidioplasty, which is supposed to make your clitoris look like a small penis. In reality mine wasn’t big enough, just quarter of an inch. I ended up having a vaginectomy. Then I had a phalloplasty. They took skin from my arms. The scars are still prominent. It’s a very serious and complicated procedure and I didn’t heal easily. I had to take antibiotics many times.

I’ve had a lot of counselling, and I came to this huge realisation that I regretted transition. I wish I could go back to how I was before I saw the gender doctor.

I thought I would detransition, but I’ve decided I can’t physically do it. My body can’t take it. I’m not sure I’d survive all the surgeries. I’d be battling my body for the rest of my life. I have to accept my body the way it is now. On the outside people see a little bloke. Inside I’m a traumatised little girl. But I’m more accepting of myself for the first time ever. I just wish I’d been helped to accept myself earlier."

Full article: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

Archived: archive.ph/soEUS

========

Something that bothers me about the GC/feminist "Wahey! A female detransitioner! Bring out the fatted calf!" reaction that TinselAngel refers to is the same thing that irritates me about the wholly ideological and selfish GC/feminist attitude of, "All transmen are welcome in women's spaces - because they are female!"

Part of the argument for female-only spaces is that anyone (apparently) male entering that space can cause anxiety, fear, discomfort, panic, etc. in at least some women and girls using that space. Not that that is the whole argument but it is part of the argument.

If we are genuinely concerned about the negative impact of (apparently) male people in female spaces, why would we be welcoming male-presenting females into those spaces? (No, I don't mean Butch Lesbians and vanishingly few have reported any issues.)

Male-presenting females on testosterone who want to be perceived as male are unlikely to cause problems (unless they are being arseholes and want to scare women) because they will opt for male spaces.

The "Detransitioners GC/Feminist Welcome Committee", virtue-signalling their GC/feminist credentials by egging-on male-presenting female-detransitioners to use female-spaces, needs to show more consideration for women who are not in their ideological bubble IMHO.

It seems to be a distorting crazy-mirror reflection of the "old school feminists" who are now criticised for inviting their "old school male transsexual friends" into The Ladies without any consideration for other women using those spaces.

Considering detransitioners individually and collectively, and there are going to be more of them, I think we should give a bit more thought to the signals we are giving out about "inclusion" of male-presenting female detransitioners. They are going to have to navigate a very difficult path and I don't think it helps to throw down the red carpet to areas where they might not, in practice, be welcome or where they might cause distress.

As far as male detransitioners are concerned, we already know that the hype about the risks to male transitioners in male spaces is a load of baloney, so any that are "stuck" presenting as female are even more not-our-problem than they were before they "mentally detransitioned".

I saw that unfold in real time and couldn't believe what I was seeing, feminists centring a man over you because he is 'more useful to the cause'.

😧

Bloody hell. When you think you've heard it all....

I'm sorry Tinsel, that's awful on multiple fronts.

They are automatically more credible, than the casualties of their behaviour.

Echoing again the deep, unconscious sexism of society as a whole, that anything said or done by someone born with a penis bears more weight and value than by someone born without.

Reverse mansplaining. It isn't really valid until a penis owner (past or present) has confirmed it. Like that awful mention last week of a woman being scolded by a man for talking about her rape ffs, and him telling her she must say 'alleged rape'. It was her bloody body but she was not permitted to judge the male's actions herself without independent, verified corroboration.

Yes, I think it's very common for people to think along the lines of, well if a transwoman thinks women's voices are important and women's spaces are important and we should be listened to, then what greater testament do you need? It appears automatically more important than the women who own the spaces in the first place.

Likewise when they do transition. If their stories are revealing, exposing the propaganda, or the sexism, then what greater indictment can there be? They are automatically more credible, than the casualties of their behaviour. Despite their behaviour being characterised by manipulation, coercion and deceit.

As always you make some excellent points, and truly thought provoking ones. Which as we try to unravel this mess, is very badly needed.

Your mention above that even when we get down to the young female detransitioners - who will be automatically filed beneath the far more important people with penises, with louder voices and much sharper elbows, because plus ca change - transwidows will be even further down the pile is absolutely true. It is still placing the transitioners first and assigning greater importance.

I think women are likely to be the ones that support the organising of services if - and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen, but I fear it's naive to hope - we end up with a large group of distraught females with some very serious lifelong issues to manage. And I care about female people and about the damage this has done to many young females, and the potential impact this may have on a generation. I also care very much about the female people who are not thinking about this in the theoretical way I am with a couple of nice TQ+ friends, but have experienced direct, awful, lifechanging abuse as a direct result of this ideology and those who have enabled it. Many who did so with good intentions and concerns about looking good and nice, and how nice it felt to be nice and open minded.

I really do hear you Tinsel . You've worked bloody hard for those women who are some of those who have suffered the most in this. The women who have been excluded from refuges, denied support and care (by male centred and male pandering resources for women ) for rape, assault, abuse and have been forced to stay in lifethreatening relationships because they had nowhere accessible for them to take their trauma in case male people felt pouty that somewhere existed for females outside of their control... and the women who have suffered rape, assault and fear through being locked up with male offenders in order to soothe the male person's ego are others I'm ready and waiting to help women's services to be built for. And not ones bloody run and controlled by those born with penises either.

From the Twitter thread:

Trans widows are always dismissed with that sort of “but”.

Our exes stories are always considered more valuable to the cause than ours are.

Bears repeating.

Thank you for all the thought provoking posts.

nothing to add, just a thank you to Tinsel for the preventative slap around the face

it's so easy to fall into prioritising the 'in' group and intentionally or not ostracising the 'out' group.

we need to be alive to this impulse in ourselves and fight it!

That reminds me of nothing more than addict behaviour @TinselAngel — fall into addiction for whatever period of time, suddenly decide to change and throw yourself FULL-ON into something opposite and all-encompassing like, say, running (joining the gym, joining running clubs, getting a PT, buying all the gear, reading everything you can, optimising your nutrition for running, posting voluminously on forums, making it your whole life), then get recruited into an extremist religion by people who know how to make you think they can fill the void in your life, then eventually relapsing…

It could also be the story of someone trying to run away from themselves in different ways, however they might personally interpret their masculine-presenting, female-attracted, possibly dysphoric self, and eventually reconciling with it in the way they feel works for them.

Either way, they were using GC events and communities to escape something, and while it's not helpful for them to be encouraged to fling themselves headlong into the next escape by feeding them lots of positive attention, I also think it's unhelpful for us to immediately focus a lot of attention on a person whose motives are unclear and whose long-term commitment is uncertain. I don't think it's just AGP detransitioners that we should be cautious of, as some are suggesting. Many detransitioners aren't interested in aligning with GC groups anyway, and in the immediate aftermath detrans groups can support and advocate for new detransitioners just fine. If detrans women are still saying they're GC and interested in talking at GC groups etc. in say five years' time, then sure, why not, they'll have an interesting perspective, but one among many, not an extra-special one. I don't think it's healthy for GC feminism or for new detransitioners to put them up on a platform to speak just a few months after their dramatic conversion.

This.

A crucial thing here is whether there is a social contagiant element to middle aged males transitioning. I don't think there is in the same way as with young people.

That is fascinating in its own right. Males transitioning largely in individualistic ways compared to big clusters of school girls...

No reason at all they should be your focus, for sure!

Or, indeed, of feminists in general. I guess there's probably an overlap of some feminists and some concerned with safeguarding youngsters and supporting those damaged by gender ideology - especially on a parenting site. The focus of some regular FWR posters is mainly informed by concerns for their children or other young family members.

Male detransitioners should be heard and listened to as they serve as a cautionary tale to any other man thinking of going down that route. Very strange that we want to discard them.

If all you allow are stories of positive transitions and female detransition, men (with AGP) will continue down the path of transition. The fact that so many try to cover up the existence of AGP has led many men down this path of transition.

I don't have any sympathy for reformed gang members, but I believe that their voices are important in combating gang violence. I see no difference with male detransitioners.

Yes, you make good points. I still have barely heard any trans widow voices outside of MN or the trans widows website.