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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Taxpayers should pay £40 million for trans men to have penises fitted abroad to bypass NHS waiting lists

132 replies

inkjet · 03/12/2022 09:23

apple.news/AOPrr5ERrTlOl2lwYl1lM3g

It’s an LBC article I saw on Apple News.

“Some 7.1 million people were on the waiting list in October, with 400,000 waiting for more than a year. Mr Brown said he understood that his group’s demands could seem outrageous in this context.”

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Soothsayer1 · 03/12/2022 18:29

I'm shocked and horrified that these patients have been persuaded to subject themselves to this😟

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 18:17

If they want enthusiasm, I'll post more from Gabriel. Remember, this is from someone who thinks it was a good decision!

extract

On discharge day five, I woke up with a six-square-inch pool of blood seeping through three layers of bandages from the donor site (“Fine, nothing unusual,” came the text back), which during surgery had been covered with thin skin shaved from my other thigh with an instrument like a motorized cheese slicer, then laid over and stitched into the edges around the exposed muscle of the donor hole. On day seven, blood soaked through two additional layers of bandages and another of gauze. (“Looks good,” the doctor said when I had my friend emergency-drive me back to the city.) Every morning, I got up, after trying to sleep perfectly still on my back with my penis propped and my hips and my legs aching fire, and hobbled with the help of a cane to the toilet, where I used one hand to keep my penis level and the other to reach over to the sink and fill a bowl with warm water, then slowly, gently wash my genitals. Still, my whole lap smelled unrecognizable, not-human seeming, like a cross between hospital air and a livestock barn. (“Everyone freaks out about that,” a different nurse said over the phone, laughing a little, when I asked if I was okay.) For more than 30 days, my donor thigh oozed fibrinous fluid from wet holes, which became big, open red gashes where the skin graft hadn’t taken. (“It’ll close. It’s just like any other wound,” said Dr. Andrew Watt, the other microsurgeon, at my fourth weekly post-op appointment — to which I’d responded, “Is it?”) My other leg, the one the graft had been taken from, had dried blood always flaking from the sometimes burning, four-by-seven-inch skinned site trying to regrow itself, and at some point my penis started to separate a bit from my body.

It was a tiny gap, the littlest hole, between the base and my pelvis at the underside where the stitches hadn’t closed, small compared with many people’s wound separation, as it’s called, which happens “90 percent of the time” and is self-resolving. But it was so distressing that I mostly just refused to look at or touch it for two weeks, the panic spreading harsh electricity through my whole torso, even worse and for much longer than the time I stood alone in my kitchen, hyperventilating, holding my penis level in one hand and my phone in the other as I Googled, “What does gangrene smell like?”

“The whole process is constant body horror,” Berrian said at one point — after he’d told me that the penis-tip discoloration I was worried about might just be sloughing tissue that’s dying off, which is also fine. And this was a recovery with no complications that required surgery. The overall proportion of phalloplasties that need surgical revision, while lower for some surgeons (including mine), is about one in two. The highest number of corrective follow-up surgeries needed by anyone I know personally is 12.

This is what some people do for their penises. And though phalloplasties that survive a couple of weeks tend to survive, period, through all manner of regular penis life and then some, I was hysterical over the possibility that mine wouldn’t. If it died, I felt certain, I would die. I had pushed myself up against the absolute limits of enduring life without it, and I wouldn’t go back to before.

I couldn’t go back to before.

One day, in that first week out of the hospital, I stood with my leg in a brace and my weight on a cane, thudding the tip of it rhythmically into the floor while listening to upbeat Billie Eilish. It was the closest thing to dancing I could do, but I understood then, for the first time, that what dancing is about is that Our. Bodies. Are. Spec. Tacular.

Tillylime · 03/12/2022 18:17

The NHS will no doubt be sued eventually for allowing surgery on the
poor dears who didn’t realise what having a huge operation compromising your bladder function actually meant.

2bazookas · 03/12/2022 18:15

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/12/2022 10:51

7 million ? That can’t be right. There are only Thirty million adult females in the UK, and if you say that at least two million will be over sixty and therefore unlikely to be caught up in this, that would mean that one In four British adult women are yearning for a stick on penis.

Do we hazard think that this spokesperson may not be too good at counting? (I’m tempted to make a joke about where they keep their brains, but that would be flippant )

7 million is the entire NHS treatment waiting list. For everything. New hearts, hips, fertility etc.

Pressure group Transactual says there are about 2,000 people waiting to have the (phalloplasty) operation in the UK.

Waiting a few years is no bad thing; time to try living as a man. A significant number of trans youngsters change their minds
post surgery.

pecanpie24 · 03/12/2022 18:12

They should be paying for this surgery by themselves just as normal tax payers do every single day for cosmetic surgery. This angers me greatly. Complete con!!!!!

VioletLemon · 03/12/2022 18:07

You are completely correct. Any NHS funds need to be directed at positive mental health and wellbeing in early years, for young parents and directed to CAMHS. We need healthy preventative innovation in health.

If society as a whole can overcome awful aggressive marketing of sex stereotypes, breakdown homophobia and support isolated and vulnerable young people who often find their tribe among reddit posts and social media groups promoting trans ideologies as a cure all, there could be hope. It's all very sad but being masculine and a woman doesn't make you a man.

Also the disgusting disease of porn that is terrifying girls and young women into not wanting to be held in a male gaze or have these expectations placed on them that they think boys or other girls are looking for.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/12/2022 18:06

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 18:04

That is not what I expected.

This thread must have someone here, with their thumb absolutely hovering to report. Maybe it's the spokesman in the OP.

Someone is always waiting I think. Anything less than enthusiasm for these things, is considered transphobic.

SapphireSeptember · 03/12/2022 18:06

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
I like how she called her clitoris a penis. 🙄 They're not the same thing at all! (Preaching to the choir I know, but this sort of thing really riles me up.) Might as well call it an undeveloped penis, if that's all you think it is. (Obviously it's not, it's a beautiful part of women's bodies, and it's telling that some men have wanted to destroy that part of us for centuries.)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 18:04

That is not what I expected.

This thread must have someone here, with their thumb absolutely hovering to report. Maybe it's the spokesman in the OP.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/12/2022 17:57

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 17:56

Can anyone give me a hint about what was in the post above? It was deleted in less than 7 minutes!

I said it was elective surgery and the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/12/2022 17:57

Mumsnet please explain which part of my post was against talk guidelines?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 17:56

Can anyone give me a hint about what was in the post above? It was deleted in less than 7 minutes!

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/12/2022 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Timezones · 03/12/2022 17:46

It's full steam ahead in Scotland. Which will make NHS care even less accessible than it is at the moment. And which the taxpayer will have to pay for.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11429395/NHS-Scotland-plans-remove-barriers-irreversible-operations-transgender-patients.html

Soothsayer1 · 03/12/2022 17:45

I cant help feeling that the surgeons* feel flattered at the grueling lengths these people go to to obtain the penis, the quintessence of masculinity, could that be what blinds them to the horror of it all?
(*I'm assuming they are blokes but of course they may well not be)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 17:29

read more at NY Magazine

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2022 17:28

Anyone else remember that feature in the New York magazine, from a journalist rhapsodising about how great their phalloplasty had gone?

extract

So there I was then, finally, showing up to online specialized transmasculine support groups for people seeking or recovering from phallo, between hours spent hustling to call (six) surgeons’ offices about consults and my PCP’s office (19 times) for referrals and my insurance company (17 times — that I wrote down, anyway) for the necessary authorizations. And here they were, these trans and nonbinary people of many races and locations, coming together to try to hold one another’s questions and fears about which donor site on their body to use, and how the site had (or hadn’t) recovered, and how much sensation they had (“My whole dick feels like a giant clit!” one elated guy described his rare, very best-case outcome once to widened eyes all around), and what size testicle implants they got if they got testicles (which are optional) at all, and which surgeon they went to and when could you go back to work and who in the world took care of you, and did anybody else have this or that or a whole series of fistulas or strictures around their new urethral hookup that rerouted their pee and is also optional, and did anyone else just leave their urethra where it is? Once, a pre-op 52-year-old Black man who was struggling with money and his disability and insurance asked if having a penis was really going to make a difference, relieve any of this pain he was barely surviving, and I watched as the post-op group members calmly assured him that, yes, it would. If he could just hang on, hang on, hang in there.

“It gave me a little more hope,” he told me later, “to keep going.”

“I would rather have died on the table than not had the surgery,” one Korean American guy with great sweaters responded (and, like everybody here, gave me permission to repeat), to a chorus of nodding Zoom heads.

It has happened at least once that someone did die. I was fully ready to, by which I mean I’d just spent nearly the last of my savings, which I’d burned navigating the emotional-mental-social-medical-legal-extreme-marginalization mindfuck shitshow of transitioning, on a burial plot just in case. One of the nodding heads in the group belonged to a nonbinary white person who was still horizontal in recovery from having had, a week prior, the worst happen, which was that after their procedure, in which all the fat and skin had been stripped from their left forearm from wrist to nearly elbow, along with major nerves, an artery, and veins, and then shaped into a tube and connected, in careful layers, to skin and blood vessels and nerves in their pelvis, their new penis had failed.

It died. On them.(continues)While I’d been sleeping, two microsurgeons, a reconstructive urologist, a surgical fellow, and a surgical resident had, among other things, cut a seven-by-six-inch rectangle out of my right anterior lateral thigh. They’d taken all the skin and fat, plus one big nerve and some veins attached to the muscle, and connected the skin to itself in the shape of a phallus. Then they slipped the whole thing under two of my thigh muscles, pulled up out of the way with a steel retractor, dragged the phallus across my groin under the skin, and pulled it back out into the world through a hole cut in the skin over my pubic bone. They connected the new penis’s nerve to one of the nerve bundles in my native penis, which some people call a clitoris (embryologically, the cells are the same), which they’d cut free of its ligaments, then skinned, then tunneled up under the skin and out to the landing site of the new penis, the base of which they joined to the base of my pelvis, putting me all together with sutures, some finer than a human hair.

BellaAmorosa · 03/12/2022 16:46

I'm glad it's out there - sunlight, etc. These people have no idea how bonkers they sound.

Signalbox · 03/12/2022 16:14

Also these operations cost a fortune. So the £40m is probably for very few individual operations.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/12/2022 16:13

Contrast these demands with the relative silence about the abysmal state of maternity care for women with (I think) nearly half of all NHS trusts with services rated inadequate. The silence & lack of action from the NHS about this in contrast to the endless resources spent on rainbow washing really tells you where women and babies stand on the priority scale - it's right at the bottom.

Signalbox · 03/12/2022 16:10

Why the hell are these surgeries not considered to be aesthetic? I mean they’re certainly not improving function and very likely will lead to a group of individuals with massive urinary issues later in life. At some point they will have to just put their foot down and say no more. The tax payer should not be paying for surgeries that do physical harm to healthy individuals. It’s absurd.

Melroses · 03/12/2022 16:02

BellaAmorosa · 03/12/2022 15:47

I have to say, part of me feels this sudden push to medicalise by any means as quickly as possible, is about a feeling of trying to get as many people trans as quickly as possible before the jigs up on the whole con. The more they can convert ahead of that, the most who are trapped by it.

Totally this!

Yes this -
Once you have invested in this to the point of medication and surgery, it becomes a Susie Green style sunk cost fallacy - you need to keep on believing and for everyone else to believe on your behalf. The more there are, the more it persists.

BellaAmorosa · 03/12/2022 15:48

HermioneWeasley · 03/12/2022 15:34

Here are my considered thoughts on the matter

😂😂

BellaAmorosa · 03/12/2022 15:47

I have to say, part of me feels this sudden push to medicalise by any means as quickly as possible, is about a feeling of trying to get as many people trans as quickly as possible before the jigs up on the whole con. The more they can convert ahead of that, the most who are trapped by it.

Totally this!

HermioneWeasley · 03/12/2022 15:34

Here are my considered thoughts on the matter

Taxpayers should pay £40 million for trans men to have penises fitted abroad to bypass NHS waiting lists