Taxpayers should pay £40 million for trans men to have penises fitted abroad to bypass NHS waiting lists

No need to go abroad. NHS England is funding a new service to provide this surgery at Chelsea and Westminster hospital. It involves a huge surgical team and the proposal includes a full time Tissue Viability Nurse. TVNs specialise in wound healing, specifically wounds that aren't healing. It's almost as if they anticipate problems with these operations.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/nhsserviceeforprovisionnof_mas#incoming-2108473

the NHS England Specialised Commissioning
consulation is now closed- but this language would surely mislead kids reading it. Maybe they’ll still take comments?

www.engage.england.nhs.uk/specialised-commissioning/gender-dysphoria-services/

And talking of grooming and gaslighting here is the NHS gender dysphoria information: www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

At the same time as it’s outrageously NOT even mentioning the terrible risks of pain and failure rates after these surgeries; ‘Your surgeon should discuss risks and limitations’ but then afterwards: ‘your health needs are the same as anyone else’s’ - it’s also misrepresenting what the surgeries create.

The NHS actually use the description words penis and scrotum, vulva, vagina, clitoris. Whatever simulation is made surgically, it will be in no way creating these actual genitalia which have complex functions and sensations naturally present for sexual pleasure, reproductive and urination purposes and ensuring these functions are kept physically healthy.

Nobody should be allowed to pretend that a constructed simulation is the same thing as a naturally present organ. The NHS don’t qualify these words which already have a widely understood meaning in any way, which is completely wrong.

You can’t blame anyone reading that for thinking it’s absolutely just a simple question of clip on Lego body parts. This is the NHS talking… I don’t understand how they can be allowed to use this language. Or who thought it was a good idea.

‘Gender surgery for trans men includes:
construction of a penis (phalloplasty or metoidioplasty)
construction of a scrotum (scrotoplasty) and testicular implants
a penile implant
Removal of the womb (hysterectomy) and the ovaries and fallopian tubes (salpingo-oophorectomy) may also be considered.

Surgery for trans women
Gender surgery for trans women includes:
removal of the testes (orchidectomy)
removal of the penis (penectomy)
construction of a vagina (vaginoplasty)
construction of a vulva (vulvoplasty)
construction of a clitoris (clitoroplasty)
Breast implants for trans women (trans-feminine people) are not routinely available on the NHS.
Facial feminisation surgery and hair transplants are not routinely available on the NHS.
As with all surgical procedures there can be complications. Your surgeon should discuss the risks and limitations of surgery with you before you consent to the procedure.

Life after transition

Whether you've had hormone therapy alone or combined with surgery, the aim is that you no longer have gender dysphoria and feel at ease with your identity.
Your health needs are the same as anyone else's with a few exceptions:
you'll need lifelong monitoring of your hormone levels by your GP
you'll still need contraception if you are sexually active and have not yet had any gender surgery
you'll need to let your optician and dentist know if you're on hormone therapy as this may affect your treatment
you may not be called for screening tests as you've changed your name on medical records – ask your GP to notify you for cervical and breast screening if you're a trans man with a cervix or breast tissue
trans-feminine people with breast tissue (and registered with a GP as female) are routinely invited for breast screening from the ages of 50 up to 71.’

BellaAmorata I couldn’t agree with you more about only over25s being the minimum age for any such devastating and risky surgery. Though even at that age of think I would doubt anyone’s genuine mental capacity to decide (I know that’s different from what is legally required to give consent though). For example at 25 I still thought I would never ever want kids. At 25 I was sick to the back teeth of the sexual harassment at work and in the street and in public/private places like pubs and clubs which I otherwise loved being in.

Had I naively considered at 25 or younger that a way out of all of that was possible plus access to an encouraging affirming (online) community.. Maybe I would have been interested in exploring some of that (although I have to say personally my inner response was to resent men for their behaviour, rather than want to be a man). But I definitely did know women at that age who fantasised about being men for what they imagined would be the freedom of that.

It’s frightening today what kids from very young ages will be being told is possible and aspirational online. So actually with all that background of grooming and gaslighting maybe 25 starts to look a bit too young.

Yes, people want to operate on each other, rapists, killers, porn advocates and flashers.

That's who's been advising the government.

"fitted"!? Like a new carburettor!

Back in 2018 we were discussing the "surprising" nature of people our leaders decide should be consulted - then it was a convicted killer and rapist being invited to talk to the House of Lords about how life can be made easier and better for transgender prisoners.
I'm sure this came after the meetings about making life in prison better for pregnant women, those with sight & hearing impairments, prisoners with disabilities and with mental health problems (sarcasm alert).

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180050-Invited-to-talk-at-the-House-of-Lords

And Jane Fae who has campaigned years for the legalisation of extreme pornography and lowering the age of participants.

Not forgetting Jess Bradley who exposed his penis at work (among other things I've erased from my memory.)

All taken seriously enough to give evidence to parliament.

But the real testament to out and out batshittery is that these loons were asked to give evidence to Maria Miller's Women and Equalities committee for her report on Transgender Equality.

Great Scott! I was concerned that that mismatch between phrasing and content would get them a foothold somewhere, but I don't think I feared a foothold gained somewhere as lofty as Parliament.

I suppose nothing should surprise me, after the transwoman who gave evidence to that committee, who complained about not being able to access webpages about sex toys via the train company wifi on the train journey to parliament.

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners

Lol. So the entire prison population then.

The list of individuals and organisations who have been invited to influence MPs about the removal of women's rights and child safeguarding is quite unbelievable. It's hard to find a more "dubious" group of people - which of course is why we're in this place now.

Yes, the entire manifesto was utterly unhinged. They also demanded the release of all trans prisoners and that hormones should be available over-the-counter.

But the real testament to out and out batshittery is that these loons were asked to give evidence to Maria Miller's Women and Equalities committee for her report on Transgender Equality.

Objections were characterised by Maria Miller as coming from women 'purporting to be feminists'.

It's the emotional demands of a toddler who is upset his cake is gone after he ate it. But it's articulated using rather sophisticated, manipulative language. The mismatch between emotional age and apparent academic attainment worries me.

Also, it's the language of people who've spent waaaaaay too much time in the virtual world.

It really shouldn't have to be explained that humans are not Mr Potato Head or Meat Lego. We can't just be assembled from a pick-n-mix selection of body parts, there's all manner of complexity, of variability between bodies that makes things unpredictable during surgery, tissue grafts failing to establish, all kinds of scarring, nerve damage, not to mention that there's an increasing problem with antimicrobial resistance.

Do they have any, any idea of how bloody insane this sounds?

<thinks>
I'm going to have to say no. That part, read in isolation, without the context of the other manifesto headings, comes across as much saner than the rest. There is a part where the writers declare that trans people have a blanket right to medical training. (At which point all wannabe medical students would identify as trans, but that's small change.) And they demand the release of all "trans prisoners".

Binturong Absolutely none. No idea whatsoever. It's the emotional demands of a toddler who is upset his cake is gone after he ate it. But it's articulated using rather sophisticated, manipulative language. The mismatch between emotional age and apparent academic attainment worries me.

When young women with breast cancer are not allow to have a double mastectomy for peace of mind why should elective cosmetic surgery be carried out for free by the NHS? Currently most reconstructive surgery for breast cancer has been very quietly shelved in many areas to save money and to reduce waiting list time for breast surgery to remove tumours. Twelve months ago waiting time for initial surgery was two to four weeks post diagnosis. It is increasing at a concerning pace.
Healthy women who have chosen to re gender themselves should not be able to queue jump using taxpayers money.

Wow! Thanks for posting that, @PurgatoryOfPotholes - I'd not come across it before.

They really have no idea how any of this works, do they?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

We demand the freedom to alter our bodies without justification. We demand an end to all surgical prerequisites - nobody should have to prove life experience,health or have to be taking hormones in order to exercise bodily autonomy. We demand that these surgeries can be highly customised to meet our individual & unique needs. We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret. We demand the free & timely provision of genital surgeries, additive & reductive chest surgeries, hysterectomies and orchiectomies, tracheal & vocal surgeries, facial surgeries, lipoplasty, contouring & microdermabrasion, surgical hair removal & transplantation, and any other possible procedure to meet our needs as we express them.

Do they have any, any idea of how bloody insane this sounds?

This is real life. No fucking do overs. It's not fucking Sims!

is this what happens when children are brought up getting everything they want just handed to them, no matter the bloody cost. Just as long as little Johnny is happy and doesn't have a screaming fit for 20 minutes in the car.

The tax payer should not be paying for surgeries that do physical harm to healthy individuals. It’s absurd.

Indeed! and "mental pain" isn't going to be fixed by bodily surgery with poor physical outcomes and high rates of complications.

Absolutely this!

Binturong

And if it's simple to fit - like a shoe, or at most like a prosthetic leg - then it's easy to assume it is also simple to undo if someone changes their mind. So why worry if young people are rushing into it?

The framing directs the conversation down entirely the wrong path.

The depiction of surgery as something akin to taking a flipping Lego brick on and off a model is definitely a recurring motif in the discourse. If anything, sometimes i think it's portrayed as somewhat easier than building a model Millennium Falcon.

You may or may not have come across the following; it's a manifesto produced by a group called Edinburgh Action for Trans Health. I won't reproduce the full thing, but note that it refers to "additive and reductive chest surgeries".

We demand the freedom to alter our bodies without justification. We demand an end to all surgical prerequisites - nobody should have to prove life experience,health or have to be taking hormones in order to exercise bodily autonomy. We demand that these surgeries can be highly customised to meet our individual & unique needs. We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret. We demand the free & timely provision of genital surgeries, additive & reductive chest surgeries, hysterectomies and orchiectomies, tracheal & vocal surgeries, facial surgeries, lipoplasty, contouring & microdermabrasion, surgical hair removal & transplantation, and any other possible procedure to meet our needs as we express them.

The whole thing is hosted on tumblr

Even though I've read Scott's and Gabriel's articles before, seeing the descriptions again has just reawakened the horror. But!!! The public need to know more about this, not less. More descriptions, more photos.

Photos of young women's arms with the skin flayed off were banned by HQ.

TRAs were desperate for the public not to see them.

And HQ agreed. On a parenting website.

Sorry binturong, the first paragraph was meant to be a quote from your post.

The trouble is that to find those stories, you have to go looking. General articles that form the basis of the public discourse tend to use language much more like the piece in the OP. Having a penis 'fitted' or evern 'surgically attached' sounds so easy. Clean, simple, just clip it on and away you go.

The KiwiFarms website has done a lot of good work on putting together info and photo evidence of the often horrific outcomes and horribly high rates of failure. Of course "monitors" got the site completely closed down; it's now up and running again.

The descriptions are the stuff of nightmares