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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

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RedToothBrush · 02/12/2022 23:45

Right trying to do a bit of reading up on the next phase for cults and to sort of crystalise my thinking on a number of things.

(Noting that two guys called Dennis Tourish and Tim Wohlforth wrote a book in 2000 called 'On the Edge: Political Cults Right and Left' which is about a dozen organizations in the United States and Great Britain that they characterize as cults. Tourish makes the point: The word cult is not a term of abuse, as this paper tries to explain. It is nothing more than a shorthand expression for a particular set of practices that have been observed in a variety of dysfunctional organisations. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT OBSERVATION AND CLARIFICATION!)

First of all its important to note who joins a cult. Its NOT stupid people. Educated and uneducated are equally likely to join. Research seems to suggest that women are more vulnerable and in particular the biggest risk factor seems to be low self esteem.

Whats that about Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria? Girls with low self esteem?

One of the things I'm picking up is that indentity change is a key feature of cults:
Undue Influence does NOT erase the person’s old identity but rather creates a new identity to suppress the old one. After different types of manipulation, the creation of a new identity is done step-by-step by formal indoctrination sessions and informally by members, videos, games, movies, publications, and social/digital media. Behavior modification techniques are employed, such as rewards/punishments, thought-stopping, and control of environment (isolation or restriction of access to others). And then the new identify is reinforced and the old identify suppressed.
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202106/understanding-cults-the-basics

Mermaids is an organisation which is founded on the principle of identity change!

Cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort.
Humans desire comfort, and in a fearful and uncertain world many turn to cults because they tend to promote exactly that. Jon-Patrik Pedersen, a psychologist at CalTech, has pointed out that cult leaders often make promises that are totally unattainable, but also offered by no other group in society. Such things might include financial security, total health, constant peace of mind, and eternal life — the things every human desires at the deepest level.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

I think this is interesting in the context of a revolt from within. Green is failing to deliver on the promise of a 'better way' and protect the organisation from criticism. The security the group offers is at risk because Green did not protect it from OUTSIDE risks. Not internal ones. She hasn't delivered the utopia of pure thought and diversity they want nor has the identify change satisfied what they are looking for.

Many people join cults because they believe they’re being offered solid, absolute answers for questions such as good vs. evil, religion, the meaning of life, politics, etc. Many cult leaders promote messages that are simple and seem to make sense, the exact opposite of what we’re often provided with in typical, everyday life. New members are often found when individuals crave these answers and then are promised a simple life by someone who seems to have it all figured out.

Research done in the past two decades has found an interesting pattern: many people successfully recruited by cults are said to have low self-esteem. Cults generally do not look to recruit those with certain handicaps or clinical depression. However, people with low self-esteem are easier to break down, then build back up in an effort to teach them that the cult is the supportive environment they’re looking for. Those that lack confidence and self esteem are far more likely to fall for a pyramid scheme that promises a better life or to jump into a religious community or religious group without much thought. They are more vulnerable and desperate for these life promises.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

Again Green has gone because she doesn't represent someone who 'has it all figured out' in terms of 'ascending to this new identity and being happy'. And as things unravel she's becomes a natural target and the group think looks for a new sect leader to deliver on The Promise.

All this sounding relevant so far??

I have to say this is a very very interesting comment:
Dr. Stanley H. Cath, a psychoanalyst and psychology professor at Tufts University, has treated more than 60 former cult members over the course of his career. From this unique firsthand experience, Cath has noticed an interesting trend: many people who join cults have experienced mainstream religions at some point in their lives, and rejected it. Perhaps this is surprising, considering many cults tend to be religious — or at least claim to be. But Dr. Cath asserts that this trend is a sign of something deeper. Many of those who join cults are intelligent young people from sheltered environments. Growing up in such an environment, says Dr. Cath, often means that “many have a history of failing to achieve intimacy, of blaming others for their failures, and of constantly striving for perfectionistic goals.” These characteristics make them prime targets for cult recruitment. When a cult is offering a unique religious movement that feels safe but also a way to find their inner worth, they are likely to believe every word they are being told.
www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/what-to-know-about-the-psychology-of-cults/

Let me repeat that. People who join cults tend to be people who have rejected religion previously in someway. Thats like a whole young generation.

Going further Mermaids could possibly fit the description of a Destructive Cult - the key descriptors of a Destructive Cult is a group that have caused or are liable to cause physical injury or loss of life among their membership or the general public. Thats concerning because of attitudes to suicide that may be triggered or encouraged by the cult.

Suicide and cults is a theme. Mermaids have a very unhealthy obsession with pushing the suicide thing, which goes completely against The Samaritians suicide guidelines. Everyone who has ever repeated the shit they've come out with on this, should be hauled up over regulator coals.

In Cults and the Family, the authors cite Shapiro, who defines a destructive cultism as a sociopathic syndrome, whose distinctive qualities include: "behavioral and personality changes, loss of personal identity, cessation of scholastic activities, estrangement from family, disinterest in society and pronounced mental control and enslavement by cult leaders."
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult)

More generally cults leave a lasting effect on members:

Prolonged and intense coercive persuasion can cause identity disturbance. Commonly, there are many additional after-effects:
Extreme identity confusion
Panic and anxiety attacks
Depression
Psychosomatic symptoms (headaches, backaches, asthma, skin problems)
Anger, guilt and shame
Decision-making dependency
Fear and phobias
Sleep disorders/nightmares
Eating disorders
Fear of intimacy and commitment
Distrust of self and others
Grieving loss of friends and family
Delusions and paranoia
Loss of life meaning or purpose
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202106/understanding-cults-the-basics

This is particularly disturbing in the context of 'the most vulnerable in society' narrative and patterns we know of to do with self reported mental health. Its almost like a self fulfilling phophecy combined with a self selecting group due to various underlying vulnerabilities.

So how do cults collapse? They seem to often implode with a leader being caught up with scandal with members not ready to abandon their 'faith' regrouping and fracturing into several smaller groups.

Cults tend to have a certain shelf life if they can't maintain their recruitment over time. And there is an observation that, since their founders are liable to have some sort of narcissistic personality disorder they are prone to lying and manipulating without repercussion and aren't likely to be levelheadedness or reasonability. Which tends to eventually lead to infighting and instability without proper management skills.

Funny that. It seems to be exactly what we are seeing developing.

All of this is EXTREMELY concerning and its about time that authorities start looking at Mermaids through the lens of being a potential cult, because if it is, the implications are significant, especially at this point in its cycle and given the CHILDREN involved and caught up in it. Not adults. Children.

I think one of the BIG problems we have with this is, getting people to recognise that cults do not have to be religious (indeed see above they tend to be popular amongst people who have rejected religion) and the trend in recent years seems to be towards to be towards political cults (with social media playing a big role in this).

If Mermaids are to be investigated, looking at it with all the above in mind IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BE AWARE OF as it explains whats happened and the reasons behind the safeguarding fails. If we can better identify this in a modern context lessons can be learnt for other situations.

I feel like I need to scream about this to the rooftops at this stage. I have been saying FOR YEARS there was a problem along these lines and the more that comes out the closer it looks to this.

Its incredibly reminscent of the Satanic Abuse Scandals of the 80s and 90s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

When the dust settles on this, I really think this is roughly where we are going to land in terms of people going wtaf, how was this allowed to go on for so long.

More basic stuff on the concept of cults and whats going on:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

I'm ANGRY.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 23:45

LizzieSiddal · 02/12/2022 23:17

After reading what employees/trustees have said about her, I’m hoping Suzy will show more of that “lack of self reflection” and gives another interview to The Guardian.

I might be wrong but I'm going to guess even they won't be taking her calls these days.

TheBiologyStupid · 02/12/2022 23:41

dropthevipers · 02/12/2022 23:10

I wonder if susie is frantically checking out and booking airline tickets to wherever does not have an extradition treaty with Britain?

Iran?! They're quite keen on transing away the gay, too...

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 23:40

Birdsweepsin · 02/12/2022 23:04

As I have said before, Shakespeare tragedy as performed via the medium of LinkedIn

Every time I see this I end up laughing like Muttley the dog.

That thing about monkeys writing Shakespeare if left with a typewriter for long enough springs to mind.

Mermaids are writing Shakespeare via the medium of social media posts.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 02/12/2022 23:27

Quisling? Aren't half the LGBA founders ex Stonewall founders too? Arrogant git.

SidewaysOtter · 02/12/2022 23:26

They STILL don’t understand what they were doing wrong, do they?

I don’t think they do, no. They seem to think that they can cry discrimination/hate speech/transphobia and that will make everything nasty go away so they can make the world their safe rainbow-pastel animé bubble again.

…the investigation which could take up to 9 months to complete and a further 3 months to publish.

Just in time for Christmas (2023).

IcakethereforeIam · 02/12/2022 23:26

Perhaps she can take an ET for constructive dismissal on the grounds of sex discrimination. She could have a crowdfund.

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2022 23:24

Michael Cashman:

'There is a well funded, concerted attack on organisations that supports trans-people. The latest attack is on the brilliant organisation MermaidsGender. The attacks will then go on against LGBQI people. It is despicable & that it comes from some LGB quislings is unforgivable.'

twitter.com/mcashmanCBE/status/1598788658672242689

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2022 23:22

Interesting client list of the Social Justice Collective:

uk.linkedin.com/in/paridhillon

'Clients and projects include:

Stonewall: Race Equity Programme
Liberty: Race Equity coaching & consultancy
NCVO: EDI audit
Girl Guiding UK: EDI audit & strategy development
ACEVO: Anti-racism training programme for chairs and CEOs
Citizens Advice: EDI learning programme
The Scouts Association: EDI consultancy
Charity Governance Code: EDI principle development
Funders for Race Equality / Equally Ours: Mapping of the race equity sector
Ten Years’ Time: Facilitated anti-oppression programme
Fawcett Society: Advisory Panel
National Union of Students: Race equity consultancy
Turn 2 Us: EDI learning & consultancy
Civil Society Media: Anti-racism training course for trustees and senior leaders
LawWorks: EDI audit, strategy & learning programme
Dept for Culture, Media & Sport: EDI and leadership programme'

LizzieSiddal · 02/12/2022 23:17

After reading what employees/trustees have said about her, I’m hoping Suzy will show more of that “lack of self reflection” and gives another interview to The Guardian.

dropthevipers · 02/12/2022 23:10

I wonder if susie is frantically checking out and booking airline tickets to wherever does not have an extradition treaty with Britain?

Needmoresleep · 02/12/2022 23:08

The whistleblower claimed: “One of the big issues with Susie was she is incapable of being self-reflective,

Exactly. This has been the problem all along…perhaps two year old Jack announced he was a girl.

Birdsweepsin · 02/12/2022 23:04

As I have said before, Shakespeare tragedy as performed via the medium of LinkedIn

So that's why Susie Green left
wesayno · 02/12/2022 23:00

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 22:33

You know I'm sat here smiling at the irony of Susie Green, the woman who turned her son into a woman, who built mermaids to what it is, losing her job for being the wrong sort of woman.

It's...delicious

Absolutely. It has shades of prominent TRA councillor Mhairi Hunter losing her seat to a TW.

Mermaids really can't fall quick enough. And who knows... Maybe Susie will be feeling vengeful enough to burn the whole thing to the ground.

Delicious indeed.

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 22:59

A ghhh generally critical NOT gender critical

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 22:57

MoirasSaggyBundles · 02/12/2022 22:49

Ah, glad to hear that they are not your caterwauling children, @Boiledbeetle . My cats are just critical in general. Nothing is ever good enough for them and they certainly complain a lot. They care not about the gender of humans, only if you've got food. Furry little sods rule this roost.

I just checked with mine yeah he said he was generally critical, but gender critical.

I should have known I was taking politics he was talking Felix , Gourmet or fresh raw mince

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 22:54

One of the other things that springs to mind here. We all know from the misgendering is literal violence stance of younger trans people and how this all affects their mental health and all the suicide attempts that are being made regularly and if they are triggered they will need a safe space and all literature must be vetted for hurty words etc that life must be really difficult for both a young trans person and their employer who had to mange their staffs needs. to

Now imagine most of your staff are in this vulnerable group of the most hated and oppressed people in the universe...

How do you ever get any work done? By anyone?

MoirasSaggyBundles · 02/12/2022 22:49

Ah, glad to hear that they are not your caterwauling children, @Boiledbeetle . My cats are just critical in general. Nothing is ever good enough for them and they certainly complain a lot. They care not about the gender of humans, only if you've got food. Furry little sods rule this roost.

PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior · 02/12/2022 22:48

MrsJamin · 02/12/2022 22:06

Bloody hell, so it was the young trans staff that complained about her not being transgender that was one of the main reasons why she left? And now these large children who don't know what sex they are are now basically in charge?! Wow. Good luck to the trustees, you will need it!

Hoisted by her own petard.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/12/2022 22:44

Birdsweepsin · 02/12/2022 13:43

The Trustees were being lied to by Green. So they got an external company to investigate her independently, amd that has nothing to do with the Commissions investigation, is my guess

Hmm, I am sure that’s what the trustees would like us to believe, but SG was shouting from the rooftops about what she was doing. Aa happy as I am to see the back of her, I hope the trustees won’t be allowed to get away with pretending they didn’t know.

Boiledbeetle · 02/12/2022 22:42

MoirasSaggyBundles · 02/12/2022 22:35

@Boiledbeetle Thank you. I do worry slightly that the B word will invoke dear Moira's appearance, but the TRAs seem to have gone a bit quiet of late.

💐for having to listen to your kids caterwauling. The brainwashing of young people is one of the many crimes organisations like MM need to be accountable for.

Can't think why they are being so absent? Moira has been very quiet of late. Hope she's OK!!

And oh no it's not my kids there's a house on the back of me their adult son? Daughter? Who knows? Bedroom is across from my kitchen I could hear him screaming at something, Someone in his room. I suspect his computer friends, he never leaves the room about transphobic cunts whilst I was making a cup of tea. I suspect the scene is playing out across the country.

Me, I just have cats they are very gender critical.

but thanks for the flowers I'll just go get a vase.

comfortablyfrumpy · 02/12/2022 22:41

ScreamingMeMe · 02/12/2022 13:38

Probably explains why this is now popping up on Mermaids' front page.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/

So..... the Charities Commission is an anti trans group? 🤣🤣🤣

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 02/12/2022 22:39

Oh I see everyone else got there first! I do hope the likes of Allison Phipps are paying attention. Zoe Williams too.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 02/12/2022 22:36

it’s also interesting to note that this is yet another case of young woke types elbowing an older woman out of the organisation that she built up. Though in this instance my sympathy is limited.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 02/12/2022 22:35

@Boiledbeetle Thank you. I do worry slightly that the B word will invoke dear Moira's appearance, but the TRAs seem to have gone a bit quiet of late.

💐for having to listen to your kids caterwauling. The brainwashing of young people is one of the many crimes organisations like MM need to be accountable for.