Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

I agree too. Also, the problem with harassment of working class girls (for sex) is not new. My DH was a youth worker in a northern town in the 70s and remembers working class parents constantly complaining of harassment of their daughters by various non-ethnic groups. He - and everyone at the time - dismissed these complaints as rabid racism. He now knows better and is deeply saddened that he did not listen at the time.

Is anyone watching GMB this morning?

They've just shown a journalist who has a program on Channel 4 at 10pm Monday. She's showing sexual harassment in two UK cities at night (London and Liverpool).

They showed a clip where she was mock stumbling down a road, near bars pretending to be drunk and alone.

She sits down on one of those plastic barrier things and within a few minutes she is accousted by a male who clearly grabs her chest. He is with a group of other men who surround her.

They then showed another clip where one male had followed her all the way to her hotel, into the hotel and pushed past into her room. So confident is he that he takes his shoes off and sits on the bed. At that point she tells him she's actually sober and why has he done this.

She said on GMB his attitude was he did nothing wrong, they came in together. She was firm that she told him not to follow her.

He was clearly an Asian male. So was the other group.

I'm interested to watch the program on Monday and would hope if the majority of predatory behaviour captured is from this group it would begin a discussion. However, I would imagine someone will say it's deliberately shown mostly one group as an excuse because of course we aren't allowed to flag it.

I did like as well that she was clear that her program isn't an attack of women going out for a drink, or to preach that women need to do everything to keep safe. She said to her, it's more the case of why are men behaving like this on a night out? Why is it always our problem and we must not have more than a sip of wine and always be in at least pairs, have our phone charged, taxi money etc. Why can't men just bloody behave?

Men also leave.

I'm fairly familiar with the Hasidic Jewish community.

There's a lot of nuance here about attitudes to women and general integration into UK society. But tbh I don't think it's that relevant to the thread for the simple reason, as a PP pointed out, that Hasidic men do not make a habit of harassing non-Jewish women who wander into 'their' territory. Plus, in practice they live in 3-4 small pockets of the entire country so are not very widespread.

This is so true - the lack of harassment. Everyone is so busy and if you see a group of young men, they are definitely doing something purposeful, I’ve never felt unsafe. I actually get the strong feeling the men (as well as the women) are all afraid of harassment themselves.

On the other hand, religions seeking converts cause a nuisance don’t they? It’s intimidating these blokes aggressively trying to save our souls over a PA in high streets. And your heart sinks if you get a knock at the door and someone wants to leave a copy of Watchtower with you. I think you are onto something about how the fact that the Hasidic Jews concern themselves with their own conduct and don’t really consider the outside world, means they are a completely different consideration.

So I feel that any measures taken to push back against the regression of women and girls’ rights in the UK, needs to factor in the freedoms of these communities.

However, if any sect of any religion or culture popped up and women (or any sub group, for that matter) started routinely walking about completely covered up (so they look like non-persons), I think it would be a step too far. To me, it is like the way the GRA was suddenly pushed through and I was immediately uncomfortable about people being about to lie on their birth certificates and all the pieces in the press were basically saying “this is the way things are now” and being sort of positive about it. It was obviously a step too far in being accommodating and tolerant and was going to make society worse.

On an entirely separate note and something that's just occurred to me, imagine how difficult it is to change men who believe that women should be covered or else they are whores. They've got it all going for them, haven't they? In extreme cases they get to control 'their' women, in terms of what they're allowed to do, who they're allowed to see, what they're allowed to wear etc and meanwhile harass and assault women who don't cover up with no conscience whatsoever, because it's the woman's fault for being a 'whore', she's asking for it etc. They get to justify this to themselves via religion (some would argue through a corrupted interpretation). They would need a compelling reason to change, particularly men who are lower on the social ladder, who feel downtrodden and cannot exert control over other men. They can't massage their egos that way, so women must be their victims, women both within and outside of their communities.

I watched a Netflix documentary and I remember a couple of young men leaving.

The difference for me with Hasidic Jews is that the men are not harassing and assaulting non-believer women who dare to go into 'their' neighbourhoods when they don't conform to Hasidic Jewish dress codes. Well, I believe this happens in Israel, but not in Western countries. Hasidic Jews are separatist, they don't try to convert anyone, they don't expect non-believers to adhere to their practices. I'm sure there are very restrictive and traditional roles for women, but they don't try to force these on the rest of the female population.

I wonder if the difference for me, is because the men also have very restricted, rule-bound, lives, what they wear, everything too, so it is not as stark as women being covered from head to toe and the men being free
I'm not sure what to say about the community that you mention here, except to wonder about why there are women leaving but no men deciding to break free? (unless I've got that wrong?)

I don’t think it is on the increase because people are pushing back, I think it is on the increase because regressive religious views have become more normalised in the absence of a push back. People are too scared too push back or they’ll be named as racist and socially cast out.

Although I think we should as a society resist and regression of women’s rights, I do want to bring something up though - about a pretty stable religious conservative and insular community- the Hasidic Jews. They have very strict codes of dress, lots of rules, and there have been women who left the community because they found it utterly oppressive. Although i know it is completely unfair how these women are treated in the family courts (that the children are presumed better off with their dad and the tradition, rather than being placed in the custody of their mother breaking free, who is the primary carer), I still wouldn’t want any measures to intrude upon their way of life. Do I just have double standards?

I wonder if the difference for me, is because the men also have very restricted, rule-bound, lives, what they wear, everything too, so it is not as stark as women being covered from head to toe and the men being free. Also, that girls dress in normal girl clothes until they get married. So there isn’t a thing of younger and younger girls adopting the ‘modest’ measures of grown women. I’m thinking out loud here.

If parents are keeping their daughters out of school because they insist on her wearing clothes which restrict her or endanger her during physical activity, then this is a social services matter. I don’t think it is happening at the moment, it’s hypothetical isn’t it?

Although tolerance is so important, it doesn’t stretch to tolerating abuse or denying a child an education.

This is so clarifying. On the one hand, if a woman is fully covered ‘or she’ll face consequences’ then she is a victim of domestic abuse and coercive control at the hands of extremists, and we have a duty to intervene.

If on the other hand, she chooses to walk around completely covered in a society which has more evolved rights for women, then she is showing her allegiance to extremist ideology, and it should be viewed as an antisocial act of hostility and a red flag.

It is absolutely inappropriate for a teacher, in a position of influence, to choose to wear it.

Yes, the queen used to wear head scarves FGS.
My personal line is at giant prosthetic breasts worn to teach school children but that isn't the topic of this thread!

It used to be less common in many places for little girls to cover - I think that's one of the dangers of pushing too hard against it, it becomes a cultural marker rather than a religious observance.

But in general - I have no issue with hair coverings - I think that is barely different than western custom. Full face covering I see as analogous to very sexualized women's clothing. So I would tend to try and treat them similarly, at least in principle.

Pp may have mentioned it, but this is the thing that KJK got kicked out of the WPUK meeting for, wasn't it? Saying that little girls shouldn't be covered up. She got called a racist, Islamophobe, etc, and people are still using it to suggest she's far right.

so many very little girls, 5, 6 etc in head coverings for muslim religious reasons as it curbs their ability to play and see and sets them apart from their classmates and the boys
that's the whole point isnt it, hold them back & hobble them from the get go so they never get to fully express themselves, to make absolutely sure that they cant be a threat to the dominance of the men😟
if kids are being covered up like this, doesn't it rather imply that men have to be prevented from letching over little girls?
It does to us but I guess they dont feel the need to consider any implications since men are always inherently in the right compared to women & girls?😟

I really appreciate that we've been able to have a conversation here.
Same here. It doesn't seem to matter that I've worked for many years on programs helping immigrants, if I want to talk about this issue irl I would be shut down and called 'racist' for talking about my own experiences of sexual harassment, discrimination and assault. Often it's just naivety mixed with defensiveness against racism, but this quickly turns into people who have no idea what they are talking about and lead sheltered lives shutting down abused women who need to talk about the crimes committed against them. People are so blindly tribalistic on issues like this, the victims are not prioritised at all. I remember a clip being shared of a Swedish girl sitting on a plane and refusing to let it take off because a man was on it who was being deported. It later turned out he was being deported for sexual offences. I had to watch this shite being shared by people I knew, who won't have known about my court case and what happened to me. What about the victims of these men, while their champions are all patting themselves on the back for how inclusive they are for sharing a post on social media? Meanwhile they don't know anyone from these communities, don't live near them, certainly don't mix in the same social circles, and have no empathy for what it's like as a single woman or young girl having your activities curtailed by the presence of men sexually harassing them on the street, in the swimming baths, in the workplace, in their own homes. It doesn't happen to them, but multiculturalism a nice idea that immigrants are 'just like us' - which is itself a pretty racist idea. No, not all cultures are like ours, many prioritise religion for a start, and in many rights for women are worse in so many ways, legally and culturally. Yes, I believe we can have a multicultural society, but not with women as collateral damage. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, I hope there are more like this.

I was seething with rage/incredulity to see a young girl (about 11-ish) in full black garb having a riding lesson - it was downright fucking dangerous - never mind the cruelty of a child being dressed like that (choice my arse).

I'm always amazed men in these communities don't kick up more of a fuss about what young girls are forced to wear. I mean, if kids are being covered up like this, doesn't it rather imply that men have to be prevented from letching over little girls?

I’m really torn about oppressive/repressive clothing for women - and I think (hope) I see both sides.

but, I was seething with rage/incredulity to see a young girl (about 11-ish) in full black garb having a riding lesson - it was downright fucking dangerous - never mind the cruelty of a child being dressed like that (choice my arse).

and, rage point number 2 - women like Lauren Booth who are “choosing” what so many 1000s in the UK have NO choice about. It makes an utter mockery of those brave women in Iran.

so yes, I’m torn - so very very torn because I wouldn’t want to see those girls kept off school because “we” won’t let them cover up. Or perhaps we need to go “hardline” and send MALE social workers to the house…

Yes, I really appreciate that we've been able to have a conversation here. We did have to fight off some posters who wanted to derail and shut us down, but after they shouted 'racist' and found it had no effect, they didn't know what to do next and went away. I take that as a good lesson - if you can ride out the name calling then they really haven't got anything else.

I mean, it's a real shame that they've taken the power and impact out of the term 'racist' but we can't let it stop us having conversations about women's rights.

Can I just say that I really am pleased to see that apart from a few exceptions who have gone anyway, this has been such an interesting and intelligent debate. I don't find anything offensive here and I hope the same is true for anyone else.

Fundamentally, I think females across the spectrum of communities have realised that we are the only ones who really care about female safety. And that if we want to ensure safety, we will have to do it ourselves.

The fact a discussion can occur on here across a wide cross section of women from a vast array of ages and communities in solidarity with each other and fears we have without it descending into a bun fight is a very good place to start.

So thank you for the debate and the feeling slightly less bad for being quite worried at what may happen or is happening.

Best not to ban clothing at all, even the Jesus and Mo tee shirts. We tend to manage this pretty well in the UK. The law permitted sikh men not to have to wear motorbike helmets years ago for religious reasons from the 1970s. As soon as we start banning things it becomes difficult where to draw the line.

I am not particularly happy that the nearest state primary to my house has so many very little girls, 5, 6 etc in head coverings for muslim religious reasons as it curbs their ability to play and see and sets them apart from their classmates and the boys, but I respect the right of schools to take these kinds of decisions to allow it and I would prefer they were mixing with other children rather than getting no education at home. The problem comes when the majority become the minority so that I become "the other", the one who doesn't cover her head, the one whose legs are showing without having chosen to be the other, without having moved house.

100% not 1100 percent obviously

@BernardBlacksMolluscs what about (and I broadly agree with you, I am just trying to work out my thoughts) not a KKK hood but a purple-white-green scarf/Harry Potter mug etc? Because some people consider the same things equally offensive. I don't btw but that's why I think its important to be 1100% clear about where the line is and why.