Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

I've never said any such thing. Stop lying.

unherd.com/2021/04/swedens-migrant-rape-crisis/

In this article for Unherd, AHA talks about the difficulty of collecting data for her book and a Swedish study that has generated some robust data:

The researchers found that, within that time-frame, a total of 3,039 offenders were convicted of rape+ against a woman in Sweden — nearly all of whom (99.7%) were men. According to the researchers, Swedish-born offenders with Swedish-born parents accounted for 40.8% of the offenders. But, strikingly, almost half of the offenders were born outside of Sweden (47.7%). Of those foreign-born offenders, 34.5% were from the Middle East/North Africa, with 19.1% hailing from the rest of Africa. As a percentage of all convicted perpetrators, therefore, 16.4% were foreign-born individuals from the Middle East/North Africa, and 9.1% were foreign-born individuals from Africa (excluding North Africa).

She goes on to look at the data in a bit more detail and then talks about how such data needs to be handled sensitively, because of two risks she identifies:

The first, and perhaps most obvious, lies in condemning entire groups, with whole categories of persons deemed “guilty” based on the criminal behaviour of a few. I think that is a mistake, ethically and analytically, not least because the overwhelming majority of foreign-born men living in Sweden are not guilty of crimes. It goes without saying that the group as a whole cannot be condemned for the actions of a very small percentage.

The second risk, however, is to take the complete opposite approach; to dismiss the link from migration to sexual violence through excessive relativisation. [...] But such an approach is not only naïve; it also ignores the existence of a wider trend. The Swedish authors themselves state that their conclusions “are in line with previous Swedish studies… [and] are also in line with international studies from, among others, Switzerland, as well as Sweden’s neighbouring countries Norway, Finland and Denmark.”

See past posts by beastlyslumber

Nice try. I'm not stopping anyone posting their personal views.

I have merely asked for some data.

Someone has finally provided some data, which shows that 'Nearly 90% of those convicted of wider child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are white men'. Yet for some reason, this thread isn't interested in that nearly 90% - only the 10%. People can draw their own conclusions from that - as to whether your interest is in the victims, or in using the issue to attack immigrants and asylum seekers.

It's pretty clear that you are the one trying to stop me from asking difficult questions, like asking for actual data as well as anecdotes - as the plural of anecdotes is not data.

I have been called a TRA for stating that the problem here is male violence. Which shows the logic of those posting on this thread!

ayaanhirsiali.com/articles/migrants-and-the-threat-to-womens-rights-in-europe

Good article here covering some of the points people have been trying to make and including some statistics. Quote from the last three paragraphs:

I don’t claim this problem is unique to Muslim migrants. Rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment seem to be universal. Nevertheless, the behavior of Muslim men in Europe is important for three reasons. First, the scale of the migration and its likely continuation. Second, its political salience. Sexual misconduct by some migrants provides the far right with a tool to demonize them all. Third, the lack of frank discussion also helps Islamists, who recognize the problem but propose a remedy that would set back all women.

Talking about violence by Muslim men against European women is at odds with identity politics and its matrix of victimhood. Politicians, journalists and academics have been reluctant to acknowledge that the migrant sex-crime wave even exists. This is as much an issue of class as religion or race. Much of the crime and misconduct against women takes place in low-income neighborhoods. Somehow in the era of #MeToo, their predicament arouses less sympathy than that of Hollywood actresses.

I have been encouraged by French President Emmanuel Macron’s condemnation of Islamist ideology in his country. But he and other leaders are still much too reluctant to talk about the sex-crime wave, which signifies an erosion of women’s rights. Rapes in France surged by 31% and other sexual “aggressions” by 32% from 2016 to 2018. Pretending the problem doesn’t exist is the surest way to empower not only the far right but also the Islamists, whose solution entails even greater restrictions on female freedom.

@xxyzz who has said or indicated ALL? I have read the thread and can't find it but you keep referring to ALL so I'm sure I've missed it?

@lifeturnsonadime. So it is way too difficult to demand better laws and better law enforcement but your solution is to ban immigrants and asylum seekers? Does that not require a change of law? And as for banning asylum seekers that would against international law. But you only want to target foreigners..

You're missing the point xxyzz. I suspect deliberately so.

So go on then - should we ban all white male policemen? Maybe we should forbid white male doctors, given Harold Shipman, you know? Or let's not have any white female nurses, given the case in the papers recently (sorry, forgotten her name)?

No? Why not?

Don't you care about the victims?

Oh you beast...

What? What should be done?

Yes, we'd all like something to be done. But policy has to be based on something more than a reaction to a single case, however horrifying. Because Sarah Everard was killed by a white male policeman, should all white men be banned from being policemen? Should they all be deported? Should we make them all sign up to agree to our 'values'?

Do you think her death was 'acceptable' if you don't immediately jump to the conclusion I've suggested?

Or can you see that that is illogical and needs more thought of the possible unintended consequences or alternative approaches?

Thanks for the link. This points out the difficulties with compiling accurate stats on this re the UK.

It's interesting, however, that you've chosen to quote the stat that 'of group child grooming / CSA in England & Wales, Asian men are disproportionately likely to be the perpetrators. The proportion of offenders or suspected offenders varies from study to study, but is thought to be anywhere from 27% to 75%.'

But strangely you've chosen to ignore the headline state, that 'Nearly 90% of those convicted of wider child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are white men.'

Why is that?

How many women and girls being assaulted is acceptable to you before something is done, there are women here speaking and you should listen to them.

Thank you! You said what I was trying to say, way more succinctly than I could.

But public policy can't be made on the basis of personal experience or individual instances, however distressing.

If you or others on this thread are going to advocate for major policy changes such as banning immigrants or asylum seekers, you/they are going to need to provide hard evidence of a wider problem and that this is the solution.

How many women and girls being assaulted is acceptable to you before something is done, there are women here speaking and you should listen to them.

Okay, we agree we need more and better data. We've agreed on that from the start.

What's your problem, though, with women talking about our own experiences and the problems that we perceive? Women's experience is also evidence. Evidence from other countries is also evidence. Evidence that has been produced on this thread is also evidence. Where's the tipping point that we're allowed to talk about it? The piece of evidence that means we're allowed to speak? Because every piece of evidence that's been put here has been dismissed for one reason or another.

Women are allowed to share and talk about our experiences. We're allowed to discuss what we think are broader issues that are contributing to our individual experiences. I'm getting a bit sick of people trying to shut this conversation down or shaming women for talking about this.

If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, then fine. But the constant banging on about how we're all racist and it's all meaningless and there's no problem and we're making it up because we hate immigrants (to broadly summarise your gist) is just getting boring now. I know you just want to derail the thread and you've largely succeeded, but the fact is that these conversations need to be had and at some point you will need to stand back and stop getting in women's way of having them.

But public policy can't be made on the basis of personal experience or individual instances, however distressing.

But the whole point, which you are actually very clearly demonstrating on here, is that data about these things can't be collected if we can't even talk about it or describe it.

All data derives from personal experience. It is the fact that it is not being collected because people say it's xenophobic to even discuss or recording these things that is resulting in inadequate data.

You claim that you want robust data but you discount personal experiences , how do you suppose data can be formed under those parameters?

How can we address the problem that women speaking about experiences are being told 'it's xenophobic' on a women's rights page on Mumsnet?

Why can't we acknowledge that there could be a problem and talk about how the problem, of lack of data and/ or how to better assimilate young males who come from countries with different views on women into our society?

You are being really hyperbolic here - I’ve been following the thread and haven’t seen anyone suggest “banning immigrants or asylum seekers”.

I've also been sexually assaulted multiple times. By men of a variety of ethnicities. This neither strengthens nor weakens either of our arguments. I understand it is distressing.

But public policy can't be made on the basis of personal experience or individual instances, however distressing.

If you or others on this thread are going to advocate for major policy changes such as banning immigrants or asylum seekers, you/they are going to need to provide hard evidence of a wider problem and that this is the solution.

Sorry for the bold fail this was in response to your :

I haven't said we shouldn't talk about data because it's 'racist'. That's the complete opposite of what I've said. I've said we should definitely seek as much data as possible - because to take action to eg deport immigrants or ban asylum seekers on the basis of zero evidence is definitely racist. It's the racists who are the ones opposing data. I am strongly in favour of it. That's why I've been asking people to produce it in virtually every post I've made on this thread.

8I haven't said we shouldn't talk about data because it's 'racist'. That's the complete opposite of what I've said. I've said we should definitely seek as much data as possible - because to take action to eg deport immigrants or ban asylum seekers on the basis of zero evidence is definitely racist. It's the racists who are the ones opposing data. I am strongly in favour of it. That's why I've been asking people to produce it in virtually every post I've made on this thread.*

No one has said we should deport immigrants or ban asylum seekers on zero evidence though.

Someone said an answer might be deporting immigrants who are also rapists.

Stop making things up.

Well another solution would be to have some kind of measure that meant immigrants had to assimilate better with British values. Not allowing things like Sharia law. Deporting those who rape or who have their girls mutilated or carry out homophobic attacks. Maybe some restrictions around unaccompanied male asylum seekers.

There's lots of things that could be explored. Just throwing our hands up and saying 'oh well women are going to get raped anyway' is not an adequate response.

Weird non-sequiturs. I don't think 'everyone is racist' - I think people who repeat on a public foreign that the problem with VAWG is disproportionately down to 'immigrants' who should be 'deported', but who can't supply a single piece of evidence that this is the case, are racists.

But literally NOT ONE PERSON has said that VAWG is disproportionately down to immigrants.

You are making things up now.

Exactly.

It was the same in Paris in the 90s the Police were aware of these groups of young males and the way they treated young women. These men though were able to behave the way they did because society accepted the behaviour.

But apparently it's racist and xenophobic to point this out and it is extremely far fetched to suggest that this could possibly also happen the other side of the English Channel.

It is social systems which exist that enable the behaviours that need addressing as well as laws. Saying woman I don't believe you because there is no 'evidence' and it is a racist claim that men from countries that treat women as lesser humans might do the same on arrival in the UK is doing women a disservice.

This doesn't mean that white men don't also act badly. But we shouldn't turn migrants into a 'sacred caste' for fear of being called racist. That's how the grooming gangs succeeded in Rotherham.

Weird non-sequiturs. I don't think 'everyone is racist' - I think people who repeat on a public foreign that the problem with VAWG is disproportionately down to 'immigrants' who should be 'deported', but who can't supply a single piece of evidence that this is the case, are racists.

'I believe you' when it comes to the lived experience of women refers to the individual experience of individual women. It was never meant to suggest that the immigration system of whole countries should be based on the say-so of a single woman. Except in your upside-down world.

I haven't said we shouldn't talk about data because it's 'racist'. That's the complete opposite of what I've said. I've said we should definitely seek as much data as possible - because to take action to eg deport immigrants or ban asylum seekers on the basis of zero evidence is definitely racist. It's the racists who are the ones opposing data. I am strongly in favour of it. That's why I've been asking people to produce it in virtually every post I've made on this thread.

Come on - you can do better than this. In every sense.

You know NOTHING about me.

I have been subjected to harassment for a number of years when living as a young woman in Paris by immigrant males, that happened. And I was raped by a white man which was obviously worse than the harassment.

But I'm supposed to brush the first thing under the carpet because there isn't adequate data and I'm a racist for even raising the issue.

Amazing.

That we're not in Germany?

Which - you being such an expert on foreigners, I thought you might know this! - is a foreign country, with a very different culture and legal system.

Prostitution is legal and a huge business in Germany. Germans are more pro Self-ID than the UK. The sex industry and public nudity are vastly more common than in the UK. I remember being shocked as a teen staying with distant relatives in Germany to have them all stripping off on a day out with me on their boat - would never happen in the UK in a million years. I was shocked as a relatively liberal British teen. If I was a young man from a very conservative culture, imagine that would have utterly confused me. Sex is advertised much more overtly in Germany than in the UK - eg sex cinemas etc. Ditto.

Germany also has a different profile and laws regarding immigration and immigrants.

Trying to translate what happens in Germany to what happens in the UK is inherently very problematic.

I also have no idea what the German stats referred to purport to show or how they're collected and very much doubt you do either - unless your German is a heil of a lot better than you're letting on (if you'll excuse the obvious joke).

I'm not saying German stats can tell us nothing of relevance to the UK. I do think they need to be handled very, very carefully, though.

Which strangely, I don't think is your priority.