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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

980 replies

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/11/2022 18:43

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 30/11/2022 13:48

beastlyslumber · 29/11/2022 20:08

I read Infidel and think her story is incredible. She's a very brave woman who has to deal with constant threats to her life. Something I've not seen much chat about on FWR or more broadly is the experiences of women who leave Islam, or try to leave Islam.

I've downloaded Prey onto my kindle so would love to have a thread about that whenever anyone's ready!

I've just listened to the first 20 minutes of Heretic.

I really believe it is essential reading for anyone wanting to have a sensible discussion on this.

The point she raises about Western views of Islamophobia stifling debate and enabling terrorists is absolutely on point imo.

She already comes across as outstandingly personally brave, she has had death threats for her opinions and she also speaks out about being silenced by organisations who do not want to have discussions.

Thank you, I'd actually never heard of her before this thread.

EndlessTea · 30/11/2022 13:41

Here is what happened to one young feminist in Tahrir Square - I found the link when I was trying to find a report of another American journalist who went through an identical ordeal. Who are these men, on their own home turf, overseen by their fellow countrymen, who suddenly seize the opportunity to violently sexually assault a woman because they can get away with it? How come none intervene to save her, instead taking a turn to assault her themselves?

Soothsayer1 · 30/11/2022 13:30

@Torunette
I found your post very interesting thank you, it's hard not to conclude that men are a problem and need to be kept under surveillance 👀

EndlessTea · 30/11/2022 13:23

That’s part of the problem. The other part is racially and religiously aggravated misogyny which is cultural.

Torunette · 30/11/2022 13:14

I find this interesting, particularly in terms of "western values."

I'm of a multi-ethnic background, as is DH, and we have relatives in other parts of the world. Cultural disruption caused by large flows of males from one region to another is not confined to Western Europe by any means. It's causing quite serious issues in Turkey and impacting significantly on Turkish female behaviour in some areas (and many young Turkish women are not very happy about it at all).

My reading of the issue is this: whenever you have movements of large groups of males from a "home" space, where those males are within a context of social and cultural policing, to an "other" space, where that policing is largely non-existent, you run the risk of allowing a "Lord of the Flies" scenario. You are essentially enabling a situation where there is virtually no oversight of that male behaviour, apart from what the state can observe and because of the nature of these groupings, the state can observe very little.

That's your problem.

The question is not why these groups are engaging in these types of assaults, but why you don't see a similar level of related phenomena occurring with "native to an area" male groups. And that answer to that is social and cultural policing: in short, living within a context where people know you and who you are, and where you have a lot to lose, particularly if the result of a behaviour is stark social ostracism.

It's the same dynamic you see in young lads going bonkers in Magaluf, the whole Italian heroin London phase in the 90s, and the development of one-nationality criminal gang networks across Europe -- only this issue is also complicated by the scale of the various male migrations taking place, the background of differing cultural assumptions and preconceptions, and the difference in language etc.

The thing is that sometimes the dynamic works in a positive way. Bronski Beat even wrote a song about it, called Smalltown Boy. But what we are discussing here is the dark side of the coin.

BacklogBritain · 30/11/2022 10:32

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

DameMaud · 30/11/2022 10:24

It's the Reith Lecture Chimimanda Ngozi Adichie

DameMaud · 30/11/2022 10:23

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001fmtz?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

This incredible speech is very relevant here

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/11/2022 10:18

Thelnebriati · 30/11/2022 00:45

There are a number of posters who repeatedly repeat far right talking points-(like Rotherham)e- without acknowledging that paedophile gangs occur across all communities.

This thread is about misogynistic attitudes in men from other cultures. Its not necessary to keep saying 'other men do it too'. No one is denying that.

Stop trying to shut down talk about Rotherham with claims that its a far right talking point. Its no better and no different than the police who dismissed the reports being made.

This.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 10:14

It bothers them a lot more than it bothers me! See when you turn it back on them, they cannot stand it. Interesting.

BacklogBritain · 30/11/2022 10:10

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 10:00

My comment got deleted, so let me rephrase. Those who are against Western values are standing alongside the far right, who are also against Western values.

BacklogBritain · 30/11/2022 09:58

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/11/2022 09:31

LangClegsInSpace · 29/11/2022 22:28

The other thing I have to say is that I think it's extremely dangerous to shut down discussion of this, or immigration more generally, on the left or centre of politics.

If you do that you gift the debate to the far right, who will not hesitate to fill the void left by the people who you have silenced.

And this was my motivation in pushing the point with MNHQ to ask them to let the thread stand

I was as horrified as any other good middle class lefty by Brexit. But the people who voted for it weren’t stupid, or ‘gammons’ or turkeys voting for Christmas

they knew what they had experienced, but affluent liberal society wouldn’t let them talk about it, just told them they were racist

people knew damn well that uncontrolled immigration had driven down wages. Peter Mandelson was quite open about the fact that that was actually one of the aims

people knew damn well that huge influxes of people into areas where the infrastructure was already creaking without putting in any extra resources meant they couldn’t see a GP or get a school place for their child, or whatever

but they weren’t allowed to talk about it. And so Nigel Bloody Farage and Dominic Fucking Cummings got to make hay while the sun shone

stopping people talking about the problems that are affecting them doesn’t solve the problems and it just makes people look for ways they can talk about them and get them sorted. And you might not like the ways they pick

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/11/2022 09:21

Mirabai · 29/11/2022 22:51

The whole thing seems rather unlikely frankly. There weren’t huge numbers of Algerians in Les Halles anyway, it’s not the banlieues. I’m wondering if she was more afraid of them than white men thus the incidents impacted her consciousness more.

I believe you

‘I don’t believe you if what you say is politically inconvenient for me’

👍👍👍 much progressive

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 09:06

EndlessTea · 30/11/2022 09:04

I personally think the term ‘grooming gang’ underplays the horror these men perpetrate. Racist paedophile rape gangs, would be more apt.

Agreed.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 09:05

I suppose we're all supposed to react with horror at the thought we might be far right, and thus mend our ways and become nice submissive women who think that sex work is work and welcome men into our changing rooms and domestic refuges. And then we can glow with the virtue of being progressive and left-wing.

But you know what? I've heard it all so often, it's water off a duck's back. If you want to persuade me I'm wrong about something you're going to have to do better than accusing me - a lifelong socialist - of being far-right. Try thinking of an actual argument. My guess is you can't.

Exactly RoyalCorgi.

It's quite amusing to me at this point that people think calling me nasty names is going to have any effect whatsoever. Try coming up with an argument, and then we'll see.

lifeturnsonadime · 30/11/2022 09:04

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 08:59

The Far right have no interest whatseover in
'women's rights, freedom of speech, equality for all without regard to sexuality or race, education for all children, equal opportunities etc"

they are interested in stirring up racial hatred -as many posters on this thread are doing-

Who is trying to stir up racial hatred?

It's not happening. Talking about behaviours of males from different cultures and discussing ways in which these behaviours could be prevented to protect women is not stirring up racial hatred, it is trying to make the lives of women better.

EndlessTea · 30/11/2022 09:04

I personally think the term ‘grooming gang’ underplays the horror these men perpetrate. Racist paedophile rape gangs, would be more apt.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 09:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RoyalCorgi · 30/11/2022 09:01

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 08:58

Do you call Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile a "Grooming gang"?

Why not I wonder? 🤔

Because they weren't a grooming gang? They were two serial sexual abusers and rapists.

I mean, I don't know what your definition of gang is, but I reckon it needs to have more than one or two people in it.

EndlessTea · 30/11/2022 09:00

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 08:58

Do you call Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile a "Grooming gang"?

Why not I wonder? 🤔

Do you think ‘grooming gang’ is a harsher term, with slightly racist overtones, compared to ‘paedophile ring’?

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 08:59

The Far right have no interest whatseover in
'women's rights, freedom of speech, equality for all without regard to sexuality or race, education for all children, equal opportunities etc"

they are interested in stirring up racial hatred -as many posters on this thread are doing-

RoyalCorgi · 30/11/2022 08:58

One of the things I've noticed is that whenever I, or any other woman for that matter, talks about harms done to women - whether it's the abolition of single-sex spaces, the exploitation of women through prostitution, the use of poor women as surrogates or the ready availability of hardcore pornography - we get accused of being right-wing, or even far right.

I suppose we're all supposed to react with horror at the thought we might be far right, and thus mend our ways and become nice submissive women who think that sex work is work and welcome men into our changing rooms and domestic refuges. And then we can glow with the virtue of being progressive and left-wing.

But you know what? I've heard it all so often, it's water off a duck's back. If you want to persuade me I'm wrong about something you're going to have to do better than accusing me - a lifelong socialist - of being far-right. Try thinking of an actual argument. My guess is you can't.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 08:58

Indeed endlesstea. And I guess it's rare to have a chance to talk about any of these issues, so maybe we're all just throwing everything into the pot right now!