Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

This doesn't only affect white women though. In fact it's women from these same communities that bear the brunt.

I don't think it's racism per se that these men are exhibiting. They just don't think any women should be going around uncovered, without a male guardian, participating in public life. They hold the women they think they own to the same standards and they punish them even more harshly.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-so-called-honour-based-abuse-offences-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022/statistics-on-so-called-honour-based-abuse-offences-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022

I'd like to know whether those accusing us of 'racism' think we should care about these women's rights and safety or not. If we should care, how do we talk about what is being done to them?

Actually, the second generation angle is quite a contested issue in Germany when it comes to statistical analyses. There is a substantial amount of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants with basically no integration and very limited knowledge of German, who have a German passport, while having been socialized in communities that live by the rules of the cultures they emigrated from.

German police statistics, however, generally show correlations of crime and nationality, not ethnicity. With this method you will obviously distort and arguaby minimize potential trends. That led to major discussions in Germany a couple of years back.

This thread needs to decide: do you just want to have a moan about immigrants or do you want to address male sexual misbehaviour? If the latter - then focusing on a fraction of the population will only produce a partial view.

No, this thread does not need to decide. This thread is about specific kinds of male violence and harassment ('misbehaviour'? ), perpetrated by specific groups of men.

There are plenty of other threads about other specific kinds of male sexual violence perpetrated by other specific groups of men, and by specific individual men, as well as threads about MVAWG more generally.

We have had threads about sexually abusive catholic priests, sports coaches, medics, celebrities, aid workers, police ... can't remember seeing arguments on those threads about our focus being too narrow.

It makes a change I suppose, usually in these parts we are accused of focusing too much on trans offenders.

What about geordie men? Can we talk about them? (tbf, some may be students from elsewhere but the fact they were booing rather than hissing suggests they are at least culturally british)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4688404-newcastle-reclaim-the-night-march-booed-by-men

There is also a real anti-British sentiment among some sections of the left, and people often talk about feeling ashamed to be British and so on. I think the idea is that almost any country or culture is better than ours. White guilt, I guess.

Definitely this. Young British people in my wider family who have lives of unbelievable ease, have travelled widely, have had a world class education, the first generation to have this given to them by their parents and who will never want for anything, hate the British because they now have to get a passport stamp on their dozen or so flights a year visiting friends. We are all structurally racist.

They will have to live with the consequences of hating their origins I suppose.

Yes, I'm not sure what the squeamishness is about but I've felt it too. I think it's something about not wanting to be all colonialist and superior. There is also a real anti-British sentiment among some sections of the left, and people often talk about feeling ashamed to be British and so on. I think the idea is that almost any country or culture is better than ours. White guilt, I guess.

But as a woman I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born in the UK in a time when no one questioned that I should go to school or work or live alone or drive a car, and the vast majority of men and women I've met in my life have treated me with respect and kindness. I've felt safe in almost every place I've lived in the UK.

It was working and living in other countries that really made me start to understand how unusual it is to have such freedom and safety. Being assaulted and raped in Egypt, being stalked and followed and harassed in Morocco and Turkey. Being followed and surrounded by a group of males is terrifying. Not being able to go anywhere on my own without a man. Having to cover myself up completely. Never going out after dark. Not even being able to take a taxi somewhere by myself.

I don't want to live like that and as much as I think we should try to give asylum seekers a chance here, if this is what's in store for women and girls in the UK then I say no. We have a good thing going here and we already have a huge fight on our hands to hold on it.

Yes it seems somewhat ‘unBritish’ to say it so baldly and unapologetically.

Your latest post indicates that you don’t regard immigrants as truly assimilated if they stick to their communities; that assimilation necessitates adopting the “belief system” and “cultural values” of their country - (whatever the hell that means).

Well yes. To be assimilated means to adopt the values and beliefs of your adopted country. That means, in the UK, gay rights, equality in general, the idea that girls should be educated, are free to marry or not marry who they choose, that women can work and earn their own money. If immigrants don't adopt these values as their own, then no, they are not assimilated, and as we can see it's a problem.

I'd argue it also has an effect of degrading and eroding those values for all of us, if we say that it's fine for immigrant communities here to hold different values. We should be fighting for those values because we depend upon them, not saying all values are equal or that our values don't matter. If immigrants don't like British values, then they shouldn't come here. Coming here and then setting up Sharia law and carrying out FGM and making women unsafe to walk in some area of Birmingham should not be acceptable.

I am wondering if some people are a bit squeamish about putting the cultural sexism and racialised misogyny against white women under the spotlight because it is shameful and embarrassing- how backwards it is- rather than because of a genuine belief that all discussion is racist or will lead to a dangerous backlash.

A can of worms some people don’t want opening.

Also referring to the sexual abuse by grooming gangs of white working class girls deemed unimportant by the police and social workers as a far right dog whistle implies you don't believe it happened. Not just in Rotherham but Rochdale, Bradford and other places. And it was driven by a belief system that White girls have no honour. This is now well documented.

Assimilation to British values in terms of equality under the law, of course yes. This is where the left go too far and alienate people, no it is not OK to accept a cultural view that women who are not modest are asking for sex, or that western women are whores.

Sounds like a plan

Second-gen who’ve not embraced British culture, but instead are still operating in “Pakistan village mode”
of course, that means they can combine the benefits of a modern technologically advanced culture, but still enjoy thier favorite sport of crushing and destroying women
it's just like british people going to spain but still wanting sausage and chips I'm sure

Actually I think it’s a very interesting point - which raises further uncomfortable conversations.

Second-gen who’ve not embraced British culture, but instead are still operating in “Pakistan village mode”.

Meaning - not only are new arrivals struggling with acceptable Western values - but their offspring are too.

Then i suggest you stop being racist

Marcuse?!!

someone's showing their age as well as their bigotry

It was a sort of aggressive belligerent contempt, as if I had no right to be treated as a human being
they are angry because they think that as men they are entitled to more status than any and all women, and yet you are freely walking around, not owned & controlled by a man as they think you should be
they will be scanning for women who look like good candidates to take ownership of, probably target young single mothers, get her pregnant, dominate and crush her existing children so that his genes prevail

One thing I find really interesting about this is the way identity politics seems to want to have it both ways. You absolutely can have these internal identity groups that have to be recognized as "communities," but somehow when you have a whole group of people who come from the same geographical, ethnic, or cultural community, they are absolutely only individuals.

As far as this language issue, the confusion is that a nationality can also be an ethnicity. And it's perfectly valid to use those words either way, you have to go by context to understand which applies.

I think this is sometimes less clear in the UK and Europe than in places where the vast majority of the population is not the same ethnicity as nationality. In Canada for example you really have no one who is ethnically Canadian. You have mebers of various First Nations people, who were members of political entities that pre-date Canada, and you have people with other, often mixed, backgrounds. French or Scottish or Ukrainian, say. Most people know their ethnicity, but first generation immigrants obviously have a cultural background that is not, in fact Canadian. My Jamaican or Brazillian friends are Canadian citizens, but it's totally obvious that they came through differernt school systems, grew up with different politics and culture around them, and so on.

People can clearly be Scottish or English ethnically, and there is such a thing as Spanish or French culture that is not the same as Chinese or Maori culture.

I'm not sure where that ever became controversial. Nor when it suddenly became controversial that moving between very different cultures can be quite difficult and have all kinds of problems associated with it.

And presumably then it is wrong to refer to the Rotherham grooming gangs as Pakistani, this is irrelevant as they were not first generation migrants. They are just British men.

How does that help anyone?

I know I have made another slip because the sons of immigrants are not immigrants, they are the same as all other men and boys born in the country. Using the country of origin for these men is problematic even when it is known. Where I went wrong was describing my harassers as Algerian in the first place. It was racist not to call them French.

I think it would be really really interesting to ask in those communities how the sons of migrants see themselves first.

I think it would be split. At least that's what I've experienced. And I think the more you move down the generations the more likely the answer will be British first.

I know.

FFS. But I'm not quite clear when I'm walking around an area where there are lots of immigrants how I can tell which ones were born here and which ones weren't.

I'm sure that this is an inherently racist position too.