Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

I want to change tack and talk about a former colleague of mine for a minute. This guy, he was friendly and did his job, but something about him was repellent, gave me the ick.

I learned soon enough that he was really tight with money for most of the year to save up a load of money, to go to Thailand and buy a girlfriend for a couple of months. I even get a little bit of sick in my mouth thinking about it now. He had these nauseating notions that he was actually helping them and their families out with the money they desperately needed. It made my head swim with disgust because I find this form of endurance 24/7 prostitution more horrific to envisage than when women can quickly get it over with and get the money.

He said it’s ‘not something he would do over here, he just does it over there’. So obviously completely othered the women because they are Thai and didn’t give them full humanity. I think there is also a stereotype of women in the Far East being more submissive, ‘feminine’, than all the nut-busting, strident feminists in the UK. It’s a trope lots of anti-feminist/incel men buy into. They want to experience having complete control and domination of women, which they lament that modern western living does not provide them with - us feminazis are to blame.

I challenged him in person on all of it, this idiot was utterly blind to the grimness of it.

I bring this up to illustrate that I am very much aware that British born white blokes can be vile, I am aware of how scary they can be when they become a mob, all these things. Wanting to focus on the topic of this thread does not make me suddenly lose knowledge of these things.

However, I was raised in British culture, so although I am familiar with these white British blokes with a nostalgia for the days of women’s oppression, I don’t really fully understand what is going on for the men who engage in the harassment, which is the topic of the OP.

I actually want to know and understand what the motivations and beliefs are behind it - when men who come from a culture where women are more oppressed than here, or are raised in a micro version of that culture in the UK, are confronted with women with more autonomy and freedom. I only quite recently discovered that, in part, there is actual racism against white women behind it. I want to know more. I am getting fed up with all the interference from people who believe, or pretend to believe, that my wanting to know it driven by racism.

But I agree with you that talking about issues like FGM/grooming gangs etc isn't inherently racist even if its a difficult conversation. If I thought that I wouldn't be on this thread!

@ReformedWaywardTeen I am not so sure - I think this goes back to the issue about being able to talk about specific issues without being shouted down. E.g. if someone wants to talk about racism they or others have experienced, even if they want to limit the discussion specifically to racism experienced in the UK, at the hands of white police officers, specifically within the cheese industry (intentionally ridiculous example) that seems reasonable. The fact that (for example) other countries might be even more racist, or that sometimes groups that are victims of racism can also do bad things doesn't change that. In the same way that this thread was at risk of being derailed by "I have experienced mysogyny from white men therefore endless tea is lying/a racist" posters (I name no names) there's a risk of derailing discussions in the same way.

The biggest risk of course is that people get annoyed at their own discussions about (eg racism) being shut down that they then try to shut down other people's discussions/complaints and the whole internet eats itself in a mess of censorship, and revenge cancellations.

Has anyone seen the thread in AIBU about is the UK racist?

A prime example of why so much goes on, such as FGM, grooming and such without being dealt with.

You literally can't say anything on there because the thread has been highjacked by the righteously offended who believe white British equals racist.

Any time anyone tries to put a point across they're shot down, even those who are married to people from a minority.

All the while there are people who shout down anyone who points out issues with any group, you are going to limit the ability to stamp out potential damage to others of a number of communities.

FGM is done by a specific group. It's kept quiet because of fear. But sadly if you highlight inter community issues you're immediately racist. I even had someone suggest to me on another issue that people who apparently voice a difference of opinion to their apparently superior one are apologists for male violence too.

Utterly ridiculous.

Yes, there is bad groups, as I mentioned Yewtree was well off men in celebrity circles who were seen as untouchable. But that doesn't excuse grooming in other communities and excuses made for that.

Yes, completely agree that the problem is that men band together to abuse and objectify women, and when they do that they focus on women they can "other" in as many ways as possible: race, culture, class AS WELL AS her sex

Yes. But also that other people (men and women) go out of their way to cover up or distract from the fact its happening - maybe because of reputational damage, loyalty to their workplace/in group/fear or conceeding political ground etc. And to do this they suggest either that the women complaining are lying/exaggerating; that their motivations are sinister; or by whataboutery. Which is EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THIS THREAD.

OK I'm gonna let you in on a little secret that'll blow your mind.

Did you know that some people - if they're very clever and want to know lots and lots about a subject - will sometimes read books by authors who aren't alive anymore!

They do this so that they can understand the foundations and development of an academic theory or way of thinking.

For example, people studying politics at university will often start by reading Marx or Engels, who are dead men who lived a very long time ago. Even though Marx' and Engels' theories were discredited, or found to be failures in practice, people still read them so that they can understand the basis of current theories and schools of thought.

In fact, some people even read Plato and Aristotle! Plato and Aristotle are REALLY dead men who lived a super, SUPER long time ago!

Maybe, one day, when you've grown up a bit, you'll be able to read some Plato or Aristotle too!

Or maybe you can find somebody to do a simple summary on Tik Tok.

@IwantToRetire We were talking about that earlier in the thread. I agree that there can be a big problem with large groups of men moving elsewhere and basically echo-chambering themselves into very bad behaviour (not always). If you look at some of the UN scandals like Dyncorp it seems like they almost created their own micro-culture where absolutely appalling things were normalized (not just by the perpetrators but by all the people who looked the other way). "Culture" can be something that applies to a whole country - it can also be something unique to a workplace, an online community, or a small group of men/women away from their families. It's not always bad. But you need to be able to talk about it when it is bad -even though doing so does NOT mean everyone within that group is bad. e.g. there were many people working for the UN in former Yugoslavia who were not sex trafficking children, or knowingly turning a blind eye. But the UN itself was so defensive over its reputation that it strove to cover up when whistle-blowers tried to bring it to the worlds attention. And punished the people speaking out. And were therefore 100% culpable for the repeated abuses.
That doesn't mean humans are always bad or men will always be rapists. There are many cases of positive micro-cultures, or examples where integration works really well (where I live is a good example.) But you don't get that without being willing to let people talk about problems when they exist. And that hasn't just happened on this thread - it also happened on the thread about Incels, on the police thread etc. And it always side-tracks the discussion and actually makes it more extreme.

Anyway, I think the ‘dream’ round table discussion wouldn’t just be feminists who come from the communities, or communities with similar cultural values and assumptions about women, particularly western women, which are the topic of this thread, it would need to include women with no familiarity with that culture, who are made to feel unsafe in Birmingham, or wherever, too. Also perhaps some men who have experienced the listlessness of unemployment as an asylum seeker in a foreign country.

Why aren't we allowed to talk about this? Name the problem in the problem?

It’s sacred caste bs

I am getting tired of this denial

Yes, completely agree that the problem is that men band together to abuse and objectify women, and when they do that they focus on women they can "other" in as many ways as possible: race, culture, class AS WELL AS her sex.

Look at the recent stories about misogyny in the fire brigade, or the police. There's no "foreign men" angle there, but it's still happening. The biggest problem we have is refusal to investigate these incidents, not a lack of willingness to talk about "British values."

@Sonervousimgonnathrowup i was married to a vile, white man. But, because I live in the UK I was able to leave, financially supported and received legal aid to divorce.

THAT is an upside of “British culture” is it not?

Of course the thread needs to be corralled onto safer ground.

All cultures around the world are equally sexist.

Women’s rights are identical in every country and culture.

Nothing to see here.

Yes to all of this.

I was getting worried how tunel vision this thread was going.

It’s not ’culture’ (hating women isin’t culture) or country thing.
It’s certain male behaviour.

The absolute worse men I have encountered have been white, I know it doesn’t fit the narrative here, but it’s true.
And many of those men were married. I wonder how many women on this board have oh so woman respecting white husband who has harrassed women.

There are definitely women who have left Islam who talk about these issues and campaign on them. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, obviously, I've talked about her lots. But also Sarah Haider springs to mind. I just read this interview (www.christianpost.com/news/interview-ex-muslim-woman-on-life-under-sharia-law.html) with Nonie Darwish - I thought it was interesting when she discusses what it's like living under Sharia law and says:

The predicament of women is it divides women. Women are not allowed to freely meet and very often men tell the wife that you can't befriend this woman. If a Muslim woman living in the Middle East, or even in the West, starts adopting activities such as joining a feminist movement she becomes an apostate immediately. And the punishment for apostasy is death.

So in this environment women are placed almost in an impossible situation where they are almost forced to become against each other instead of supporting each other.

I wonder also if part of the reason, historically, is that whenever politicians start talking about "community engagement" and "talking to community leaders" they always gravitate towards the men - so it becomes: older, white, man goes and talks to older ethnic minority man and that's a tick in the community engaged box. Nothing wrong with either of those groups of people but it means the opinions, values, concerns of a whole swathe of other people is ignored.

I posted this on another thread, after some variety of misogynistic racist troll turned up. That one had a thing about wanting to punish muslim women for being muslim. I'll post it again, because I was in a more literate phase then.

Some women don't seem to realise how dangerous it is to settle for conditional condemnation of misogyny and sexual violence towards women. If aggressive threats (e.g. threats of rape) and sexually intimidating behaviour are acceptable against other women who oppose your male allies politically, then you don't have rights either. You are simply accepting that it is your responsibility to walk on eggshells to keep their favour, and that your safety from having rape used as a tool of discipline against you should rest on whether you pick the winning side.

Which illustrates perfectly that the actual issue is whether women are autonomous beings or not. This question is relevant to ALL women

Outwardly there is autonomy in west, although even in the west It could be argued that it is no more than a veneer of autonomy.

There are clearly things it is better we do not speak of.

Well, this is what I think. Male violence against women doesn't become acceptable because she votes for a different party to me.

Women's personal safety should not be conditional on their politics. It's like women are morally expected to save themselves from male violence by pandering to the egos of the currently winning party. We should have the right to follow our principles. Instead, it's clear that we're supposed to choose our allegiances based on which party's male supporters issue the most death threats.

for the lurkers what Ministry means by the wrong sort of woman is male ones.

It's really quite telling Ministry that you are trying to use a woman who is the victim of FGM and who has been scapegoated by the Labour party as some kind of 'gotcha' in your own personal crusade. Apparently if women mention cultural differences it is racist but for anyone else it is fair game, right?

WEP has trashed itself by a few male members going to war with women in the party and driving them away. Several of them post daily about getting rid of women.

Only 180 people attended the WEP conference this year. That's absolutely tragic.

It's now basically just a couple of hundred TRAs. This is what happens when they get involved.