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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

980 replies

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/11/2022 18:43

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 11:39

sorry I hadn’t seen you’d posted too soothsayer, because it was at the bottom of the previous page.

Soothsayer1 · 03/12/2022 11:36

My interpretation of @Torunette's post is that if if circumstances, geographical or otherwise allow men to dominate then they will, and once a particular group has power it's very difficult to get them to give it up, they will never do it willingly.
In cultures which are 'primitive' /less evolved we have no option but to let the strong men have power because we need them to protect us from the wild animals and the other strong men from other tribes. Power corrupts, always, it's bound to go to their heads!
We develop other, better fairer ways of doing things but the dominant group will always try to hold onto power, that is what slows down progress and yet it is human nature to not let go of anything that you have attained.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 11:28

Sorry x poster BeastlySlumber

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 11:26

Torunette I get where you are coming from about the practical side, and I am going to need to restrain myself because I have a geeky fascination with the practical origins or a lot of beliefs and I may go off on one if left unchecked.

For example, when I was a kid, it was extremely common to hear the phrase “seven years bad luck”. I was irrationally terrified of walking under ladders, breaking mirrors or opening umbrellas indoors, for example, because of it.

As an adult, I reflected upon it and realised that parents, who are busy, tired and just don’t have the mental space to go into a long explanation, can stop their children doing dangerous things that could cause injuries- like something dropping on your head from above a ladder, or injuring an eye with an open umbrella, very quickly, effectively and permanently, by breeding superstition in them.

The problem with this though, is that it is irrational.

With religious traditions though, a lot of the superstitiousness and ritual behaviours, were not planted there for practical reasons of safety or comfort, but in order for a small elite group of patriarchs to foster hierarchies to control the population using guilt, shame and fear.

So I agree with saying about the practical things ‘that’s not going to work here’, but there is the other layer that is as much, perhaps even more, influential with regard to the norms of doing things.

For example - I cannot think of any practical purpose for foot-binding or FGM.

beastlyslumber · 03/12/2022 11:13

a particular way of doing things in one particular area tends to be the best way of doing that thing

Sorry, where is it the 'best way' to systematically abuse women and girls by cutting off their genitals, denying them education, forcing them into marriage and raping them as punishment? Why does that 'suit the geography' of some countries?

It's not that women are in public space because our culture is somehow "superior" per se, but because that is a necessity for how most families survive in Britain.

No, I don't accept that there's nothing "superior" about women being relatively free compared to being completely oppressed. Of course a country that bans FGM is superior to one that allows it. A country where girls are educated is superior to one where they are forced into marriage and childbirth. A country where gay people can live openly with their gay partners is superior to one where they'd be killed for being gay.

Yes, our culture is superior. If you don't believe that and you're not prepared to defend it, then what argument have we got that another culture shouldn't take over?

Soothsayer1 · 03/12/2022 11:10

What the issue is now is that we have huge numbers of people bringing their way of doing things from one place to another very different place, and those ways of doing things don't work -- and it is causing problems
Very true, and men from a strongly authoritarian and patriarchal culture are bound to try and impose their culture on us because it's their inherent Modus operandi. Furthermore I think the more difficult and dangerous the journey the more they expect a big reward at the end of it, it becomes a mythic quest where they slay the dragon and claim the princess.

Torunette · 03/12/2022 10:57

As I said up thread, I'm from a multi-ethnic, multi-heritage background, as is my DH. I've also lived and worked in other countries, including in the ME.

I personally believe we all, in Britain, see "culture" through a very strange lens. My experience has taught me that "culture" is largely geography (as is religious expression). People in certain places do certain things because those things make sense where they live.

Take Bedouin facial veiling: that makes total sense if you are female and live in either the Arabian or North African desert. In fact, no matter who you are, you are kinda daft if you don't do it if you find yourself in the desert because it stops your nose burning off.

The saying "When in Rome ... " is sensible, but not because one way of doing things is more "superior" to another, but because a particular way of doing things in one particular area tends to be the best way of doing that thing.

Not eating a big, cooked breakfast is a sensible idea if you live in a hot country, as is not drinking huge amount of beer -- which is why Southern Italians, Greeks and Arabs drink coffee for breakfast and tend to consume more spirits (hence the Gulf obsession with whisky).

No joke, almost every cultural thing you can think of has its roots in a specific geography. Accents, for example, tend to reflect the landscape of an area: the more hilly, the more singsong -- which resulted, for example, in Welsh male voice choirs. What you build, and how you build it, and what you build it with also creates culture and how a human thinks and perceives the world around them: dry stone walls don't tend to last in hot countries, for example.

And this does affect all manner of expression. The Christian Church would not have survived in England, Wales and Scotland if it had mandated praying on the floor. It would have just been too damn cold. By contrast, cool places to reflect/pray work in hot countries, hence the reverse situation with Islam.

Indeed, I'm pretty convinced that England, Wales and Scotland have historically over-produced in terms of literature because the climate (cool evenings and endless rain) meant that people stayed indoors and where just in the right atmosphere to start jotting down stories.

What the issue is now is that we have huge numbers of people bringing their way of doing things from one place to another very different place, and those ways of doing things don't work -- and it is causing problems.

But because we seem to view "culture" as some sort of synonym for race, ethnicity or creed, no one is actually saying "Mate, that aint going to work here because #practical reasons."

I mean let's be blunt here. The reason why generally we have different attitudes to women in public space in this country is because, unless you are fairly wealthy, most of the females in a family will have to work outside the home at some point in their lives, which means they need to be safe in public space and free from harassment. For the majority of British families, females working outside the home is a matter of financial survival. It is today; it was in the 1950s; it was in the 1850s.

It's not that women are in public space because our culture is somehow "superior" per se, but because that is a necessity for how most families survive in Britain. If you have a family where you have one adult male and five adult females, and none of those women can go out to work because of the sheer harassment and aggression on the streets, your family is going to face poverty.

In short, harassing women and girls in public = creating spaces for poverty and deprivation to take root.

I think we need to start talking about "culture" in this practical way. It's not a clash of ideas or beliefs; it's about the way we do things in Britain to ensure the survival of our families, and making it clear that the way you ensure that survival in another very different place is not going to work here.

MMBaranova · 03/12/2022 09:25

Thank you to so many who have made thoughtful, informed and decent posts to this thread. Consideration of the impacts on women and girls seldom seems to rise above the simplistic in political discourse.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 08:35

*or social services interventions

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 08:33

When I said “a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent.”

I am thinking for it to be pretty basic. How to go to the shops and buy stuff, a bit of language to get by. Independence to get going. Knowing that bribery is not acceptable in the UK, haggling isn’t really either, a basic understanding of women’s and Children’s rights in the UK and what is illegal and might lead to criminal prosecution of social services interventions, that we have civil servants, not overlords and how to complain about behaviour figures like the police, that sort of thing.

It wouldn’t make sense to heavily invest in someone’s adjustment to the UK way of life, unless their application is successful and they get leave to remain.

i think it is fine for people/families (I would consider one unit) to be placed in threes, fours or fives around the country, with some basic orientation like that.

I don’t think it does any good to have larger groups placed together. The impact on the resident population is too damaging and it doesn’t bode well for their long term integration if their application is successful either.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 07:31

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:41

You will get nowhere with any of that without people around who understand their language and culture.

That is not true. Not everyone seeking asylum comes in a big block with people from their home country and is greeted by an already established group. I’m thinking of, say people from Sierra Leone where they rarely are placed with anyone else from home, IME.

Translators understand their language and generally will understand their culture. Cultural understanding is not a priority when you have just fled for your life and are seeking asylum.

LangClegsInSpace · 03/12/2022 00:06

namitynamechange · 02/12/2022 17:14

@awomansvoice I think its to do with the absolutely glacial pace of the asylums process and the backlog. It means that people who don't really have a case are left in those hostels for a long time. It also means people who absolutely have a genuine case are left in limbo sometimes for years - impacting their ability to get jobs/education, deal with their trauma, build lives and integrate. Its shit for everyone.
I agree, immigration should be needs based not class/education based. But that should come with the understanding that people from vastly different backgrounds will need a lot of help to integrate with the UK and a willingness to provide that help. And a willingness to demonstrate what is not tolerated under UK law and culture.

All of this.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:41

EndlessTea · 02/12/2022 17:16

I think I am rapidly starting to disagree with the idea that “when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.”.

I think the first thing they need is safety and security.

Then some record on a database so that they can hook up with loved ones they’ve been separated from.

Then a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent. Also advice on their asylum application and being hooked into relevant services.

I think having others around who understand their language and culture are a ‘nice to have’, not an essential priority, apart from, of course, access to interpreters and translation services.

You will get nowhere with any of that without people around who understand their language and culture.

awomansvoice · 02/12/2022 23:25

Do you mean the repeated assaults and sex attacks I've experienced were because I'm a white woman? No, I don't think I was only targeted because I was white, a mixed race girl of 16 was also a victim of the serial sex offender that attacked me. Perhaps you should show a little more sensitivity when talking to women about being repeatedly made victim of sexual harassment and violent attacks though, not a good look for you.

awomansvoice · 02/12/2022 23:22

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:07

Thanks @BernardBlacksMolluscs for endorsing posts by @pinkvelvetrose , @ReformedWaywardTeen , @awomansvoice who all suggest that their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion -

What does this mean: "their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion"?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/12/2022 23:19

I would like to thank the women who have spoken about their experiences of sexual violence. Please ignore any nasty goaders who insult and malign you for speaking about your own lives. They have no moral high ground- they are just here to shout at women and I doubt they care about racism or anything else. They just enjoy sticking the boot into women for some reason.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:11

I am coming around to the view that we need to limit immigration into the UK. I don't see what else we can do if we continue to have thousands of young males coming here. We've heard how towns and communities are being changed beyond recognition and women and girls made unsafe. We talked upthread about possible solutions, such as education programs, public awareness programs, dispersing immigrants to different places etc. But ultimately I think the most effective thing would be to limit immigration altogether. Other countries limit immigration and protect their borders, and we are an island - we cannot keep taking tens of thousands of young men every day. I feel somewhat bad about coming to this view, like it's the 'wrong' view to hold, but it's what I'm thinking.

We do limit immigration really quite strictly in the UK. We have limited it so strictly and inhumanely that our immigration policy has led to mass human rights abuses such as the Windrush scandal and the 'hostile environment'.

The current problem is that a lot of people are arriving with nothing on small boats (i.e. illegal routes that we can't control simply by declaring them illegal) and claiming asylum. Very many of their asylum claims are genuine. Some aren't because they have come here simply for a better life. Some aren't because they have come here to engage in organised crime. Many arrive as victims of this organised crime.

Like almost all countries in the world, we are signatories of the 1951 Refugee Convention.

www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html

Like almost all other countries we have signed up to international law that says people from any country have a right to claim asylum here. Their claim may not ultimately be accepted but they are entitled to a fair hearing.

Before Brexit we were also signed up to the Dublin Regulations which say that all EU countries are basically safe so asylum seekers can be sent back to the first EU country they arrived in, to claim asylum there. That was really convenient for the UK, with a sea and a giant land mass between us and e.g. Greece.

We can't use those regs any more, hence the diphtheria tent city in Kent and hence ludicrous notions about sending them all to Rwanda.

The latest stats are interesting. In the year to September 2022 there has been a sharp increase in small boat arrivals to the UK and we now have twice the number of asylum claims as we did in 2019. Meanwhile in the year ending September 2021, asylum claims in the EU as a whole fell by 4%. I'm not comparing like with like because the years are different. Also the effects of covid over the past two years are complex and need factoring in.

Nevertheless, those figures are startling. It seems likely that word has spread in the people trafficking industry, as well as among refugees, that the UK can no longer send people back to mainland Europe.

But even with this doubling in numbers, in the UK we still do not take our fair share of asylum seekers. In 2021 we were 18th on the list of European countries for numbers of asylum seekers per head of population.

www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html

I have no clue what's going on with Albania so I won't comment on that except to say that countries that generate high levels of international organised crime are often the same countries that people need to seek asylum from.

The migrant crisis has no easy answers. I do believe that the current uk refugee crisis has in part been caused by brexit. But it's not a UK issue, or even a European issue, it's a global issue and it's only likely to get worse.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:07

Thanks @BernardBlacksMolluscs for endorsing posts by @pinkvelvetrose , @ReformedWaywardTeen , @awomansvoice who all suggest that their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion -

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 21:31

The problem with that, of course, is that different cultures differ on what they view as human rights and, in particular, women's and girls' rights
I would like to reword that...
'different cultures differ on whom they view as fully human'
broadly speaking some combination of only the men or only the wealthy & powerful are viewed as fully human in some cultures

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 19:56

The only way out of this would probably be to prioritise certain basic human rights above the respect for cultural values and to apply that ruling to all cultures exactly equally. The problem with that, of course, is that different cultures differ on what they view as human rights and, in particular, women's and girls' rights.

It doesn't matter what they view as human rights.

We all have the same human rights and they are protected in law.

What you have described is exactly what Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights says.

We all have freedom of thought, belief and religion, including the right to express those things. But these rights can be interfered with in order to protect public safety, public order, or the rights and freedoms of other people.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

Xenia · 02/12/2022 18:22

beastly, that was the point I was trying to make but not as well as you up the thread. As I am essentially a liberal I have no problems with particular families choosing to lead different lives whether that be children educated at home like our Queen or boarding school or faith school or privae school or whatever and all the different types of families you have in the UK from those without a TV to those children virtually plugged in all day to their phones.

I suppose I draw my line at the law of the land - so no s ex before age 16, girls in theory free to exercise their rights under the law even if their culture is forcing them into a marriage etc.

Some countries and hopefully the UK do try to educate immigrants into the ways of the place where they are now living, particularly as to the laws.

I don't think anything like enough is done to consider those who have others placed among them that then affects the original inhabitants in negative ways. Yet if we want amicable race relations in the UK we do need to listen and help those subjected to the kinds of things shown on the thread and the negative impact of large numbers of largely unsupervised young men from sexist, homophobic (and for those with mafia connections also criminal cultures). Even basic things like you are not allowed to give or offer a bribe could usefully to be told to some newcomers from countries where bribery is endemic.

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 17:29

His dad was vile, 5ft 2, yet clearly muscular to the point of looking like his arms would burst. He sat at pick up, staring and huffing at us all. Never joined the dad's. Always on his own. There were other Asian dad's there but they never spoke to him
I think his sons are extensions of him, he has purloined them to compensate himself for his lack of stature, he's let them be feral so all they can do is spread their fathers 'message' out into the society that he is excluded from (and sounds like the sons now are too)

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 17:21

I think multiculturalism is great when it comes to things like food, festivals, clothes etc. But when it comes to basic values about how society operates, I don't think we can afford to have lots of different cultures in the mix
true but the things we want (food, festivals, clothes) will inevitably be used as a trojan horse for the values that those fleeing to our country will naturally want to bring with them, not blaming them....it's normal to want familiar things so that you feel safe & can settle.
It's not their fault that the values instilled in them are destructive to our culture, but their values are part of the reason their country is a place they want to flee from!

EndlessTea · 02/12/2022 17:16

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 12:37

Also, I want to refute the earlier point about it being beneficial for asylum-seekers to be effectively ghettoised to help them recover from the trauma.

That's not what I said though.

The point I was trying to make is that when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.

There is a huge area of compromise between immediately dispersing them to the back arse of beyond in ones and twos, and ghettoising them in huge numbers for months and years.

I think I am rapidly starting to disagree with the idea that “when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.”.

I think the first thing they need is safety and security.

Then some record on a database so that they can hook up with loved ones they’ve been separated from.

Then a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent. Also advice on their asylum application and being hooked into relevant services.

I think having others around who understand their language and culture are a ‘nice to have’, not an essential priority, apart from, of course, access to interpreters and translation services.

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