Change of CEO at mermaids…

I think if you used the C word, it's an auto-delete.

But not cunt, that is a permitted C word!

Is this better MN? I used to work in urology theatre and know that this is the proper medical term so please don't delete me this time.*

@OldCrone I didn't say either authors were biased or that their paper was biased. I said there appeared to be many people disagreeing with their stance which (in my mind) indicates conflicting (ie weak) evidence and I stand by that assumption. If all the researchers including the authors had agreed on the same thing then that would have strengthened the argument that Childhood sex-typed behaviour is connected to sexual orientation.

I stand by my previous comment that Childhood sex-typed behaviour is not connected to sexual orientation in any meaningful way - an argument that many of the researchers mentioned in the paper also agreed with (especially re: girls and women where it appears little research has been done on this matter).

For some reason one of my earlier comments has been deleted but as I said in that one what on earth does all this have to do with the ex CEO of mermaids Susie Green who decided to give her primary school age son puberty blockers and then take him to Thailand to have a bilateral orchidectomy and penectomy be c*** on his 16th birthday?

I though most of us were in agreement that assigning people sexual characteristics based on what they feel like/what toys they played with is nonsense?

Jesus, every time I try and reply I have my message deleted and I'm not saying anything controversial or impolite!!!

Zucker was regarded as a leading world expert in the field of childhood gender dysphoria. The trans lobby went after him because he didn't automatically affirm every child (although he would affirm if the evidence pointed to lasting dysphoria).

He received an unconditional apology and a huge pay out.

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/camh-settlement-former-head-gender-identity-clinic-1.4854015

Nice user name though @BloodyHellKen do love Uncanny

Zucker and Bailey have both been interviewed as part of the gender pioneers series on Gender a Wider Lens podcast.
Very interesting for background and context:

You do realise that anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, don't you? Dismissing a peer reviewed paper as biased and citing Wikipedia as evidence... What can I say?

I'm not sure which of the two authors you are dismissing as biased and controversial. Both have been smeared by the trans lobby.

Kenneth J. Zucker used to work at a gender clinic in Canada, but left after being accused of conversion therapy because he advocated a 'watchful waiting' approach in treating children who identify as transgender.

J. Michael Bailey was attacked for writing a book about transsexualism entitled 'The Man who would be Queen'. Alice Dreger has written about this here.

I suggest reading sources other than Wikipedia if you want to know about the authors.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree as I think:

The paper is a review of existing research, most of which appears to find the opposite of what the authors claim to be true so at best it would appear there is much conflicting evidence - (that's why I said it's not great evidence).

and you clearly don't agree with that sentiment.

That's fine we don't have to agree :)

Also if you want to see the claims I mentioned about (one of) the authors look at their Wikipedia pages.

The paper is a review of existing research, most of which appears to find the opposite of what the authors claim to be true so at best it would appear there is much conflicting evidence - (that's why I said it's not great evidence).

That was very uninformed of you. Literature reviews are a higher tier of evidence than individual studies. Do you have some kind of critique of the methodology?

And if you are going to make claims about people (or indeed about research) you should substantiate them.

Would you mind clarifying exactly what it is you disagree with in the paper and also why you think the authors have no credibility?

Thanks

Hmm, having read the paper and a bit about the 2 authors I'm not sure about that being such great evidence

This is an odd thing to say. How do you think evidence works? What did you read about the authors? Do they falsify their data or something? Do you think it’s appropriate to make snide insinuations about their integrity without any supporting evidence? Why?

Hmm, having read the paper and a bit about the 2 authors I'm not sure about that being such great evidence 😂

Childhood sex-typed behaviour and sexual orientation

www.researchgate.net/publication/232563268_Childhood_Sex-Typed_Behavior_and_Sexual_Orientation_A_Conceptual_Analysis_and_Quantitative_Review

I would have to respectfully disagree that gender non-conformity is strongly correlated to homosexuality @Whattaboutit unless you can show some very robust evidence/research otherwise.

Lesbians are not all 'butch' and gay men are not all effeminate despite that being how popular culture unfortunately sometimes portrays them.

Lesbians and gay men have as varied personalities and interests as hetero men and women.

It is actually true that gender non conformity in childhood is strongly correlated with adult homosexuality.

Do you have a source for that?

The word 'tomboy' used to be used for gender nonconforming girls. The fact that there was a name for them indicates how common this is. They don't all grow up to be lesbians - it's unlikely that even a majority of them do.

It is actually true that gender non conformity in childhood is strongly correlated with adult homosexuality. That’s why transing children can be framed as ‘transing the gay away’.

I also wonder if our heed as a society to pathologist everything now also has an impact.

Look at MN. Children are all either gifted or have SN. There are no mediocre simply average children on MN outside the teens who don't shower and are vaping. ( i have a teen myself i share all the concerns amd frustrations no judgement here i.assure you!)

Kids have an option that many of us didbt growing up due to family responsibilities and circumstances and just how things worked. And that option is failure. It is hard and I can see that in myself sometimes to think that something needs fixing because we didn't have this option so to see our children struggle with what seems simple sometimes can pose questions fir is as in "is this normal"

Its definitely us who need to change and not the children. And we need rid of those who seek to pounce and make their fortunes on seeing normal childhood development and feelings as a problem.thay needs solving with medication that stunts their growth akd development

Given the overrepresentation of autistic youngsters at gender clinics, I'd say linguistic precocity and emotional delay are not that unlikely a combination.

the BBC programme 'no more boys and girls' was very clear about how children are socialised, before they are even born, into following certain stereotypical patterns

Wasn't this the programme that also observed that the way children of both sexes play - in terms of role play and 'gendered' play is heavily influenced by what they see at home. I.e boys will play at looking after babies and cooking/cleaning if they see their Dads doing it too.

I do find it extraordinary how perfectly normal child development is ignored or perhaps unknown by parents with children who then ascribe gender confusion to being trans.

Well quite.

Susie Green seems to have gone from someone who is quite happy to obey her husband in getting rid of all her child's toys, despite the obvious trauma, and personal disagreement with the premise, to someone who is so convinced in everything they think and do, that nothing will sway them from their opinion.

Why are we infantilising her?
And attributing all her actions to a man?

She was clearly the bigot who was driving the blockers and surgery

Yet simultaneously when you see them on tv/you tube they are the most emotionally stunted , child like , self absorbed, incapable young adult you will ever see.

Where being able to so much as put on a load of washing or remembering to feed the cat is a huge achievement.

Both things can't be true.

And as you say no one ever answers the question

Brilliant post! 😆

@Datun quoting Hadley
Green says that as soon as her baby boy “got mobile” — ie, learned to crawl — “he was gravitating to things that you would think are stereotypically female”. Like what, tampons?

“What like tampons” should be the go to phrase to distinguish “stereotypically female” Because skirts, lipstick and pink does not cover it.