Girlguiding Brownie leader raising concerns

I was asked to leave for raising my concerns - I was a Brownie Leader and a District Commissione and I said I would not, if it ever happened, sign off a REN form if I knew there would be men/boys present and this hadn't been called out in the risk assessment.

Gosh didn't know about the condom policy 😔.

GG got lost up their own arses with their be kind mantra. I've had children in both GG and Scouting, and Scouting is imo much safer. From what I've seen, Scouting do very much welcome girls into the group, but have very strict safeguarding procedures for camps.

@tadjennyp did they mention their condom policy at safe space training too? Given the penises that might be present at camps. But no training about how to spot if a girl is actually being abused/ raped when she is having condoms handed out by her guider, aged 13.

@tadjennyp yer, I don't think they mention these things, like other organisations you don't realise how messed up it is until you're already quite involved with it (I'm actually thinking of some uncommon religions and cults when I say this).

Raising concerns about keeping girls safe and discrimination was exactly what I did. They never investigated those concerns yet threw me out.

I dare you to ask a question about keeping girls safe. If I were a betting lady I'd bet you £1,000 within a week they'll have found a reason to throw you out. How about "I read on the internet you don't bother with criminal record checks and references for all your volunteers, as this is delegated to district commissioners who may or may not think this is something that they should bother with. Is this true?"

They're going to kick you out for asking them questions? None of this was mentioned when I did my safe space level 3 training the other week.

I was a Brown Owl for many years and left when the guidance was released that stated that parents could not be told that a child of the opposite sex was to be sharing rooms or tents with the other girls. I believe that parents should be aware.
It all happened to coincide with the change and dumbing down of the programme to make it more basic and prescriptive for Brownies, at least, so it was no longer for me.
I still believe that being a Brownie is a good thing, even though not as exciting as it was 10 years ago.

@AJNorthWest Wow. This is so shit that volunteers must pay for lawyers to protect themselves against an organisation that they volunteer for. I hope people considering volunteering for this organisation are aware of this. Do you still volunteer for them AJ? Are you aware of others who have been kicked out for daring to ask if / how they keep girls safe?

As much as you love it I'd just f-ck it all off and walk away.

Good luck @AJNorthWest

I am dismayed by what has become of Guiding

It's so sad. I loved guides ans did so much (my group did as much outdoors stuff as the scouts, wasn't just craft and singing or whatever.)

I meant for my girls to go through the levels but pulled them out due to this (and told GG HQ. They must know.) And due to the change in curriculum to girlify it.

They are loving scouts now but I am so sad that that space for just girls isn't there.

@NitroNine "Which you need when your organisation is an ableist racist shitshow that’s abandoned its founding principles 🤷‍♀️ Selectively applied, naturally, but I know someone whose social media postings contributed to the permanent withdrawal of her membership (in her case, posting about her mental health issues).
If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence." Do you have experience of this or do you know those who have experienced this? I'd be very interested to hear what happened to you/ those you know as this all sounds remarkably familiar.

@anyolddinosaur how did they respond?

@AJNorthWest have you got an update pls? Did they kick you out for asking if they intend to keep girls safe?

@Believerinbiology could you point me in the direction of these threads, please? Do the concerns all relate to raising concerns re inclusion policy? I got excluded (and my two daughters too) for raising concerns about things far more basic - discrimination against disabled children, risk assessments so bad I thought it would leave people uninsured (which obviously puts individual leaders at huge personal risk, not to mention that people might not be able to quite rightly claim on isnurance in event of incident), basic checks such as criminal records checks not being carried out on volunteers etc..

A group for Girlguiding Members - adult volunteers & parents of girl members - who want Girlguiding to scrap their policy on Male Self ID www.facebook.com/groups/3779463675613640/permalink/3779465942280080/

@Cailleach1

Girlguiding don’t apply their processes evenly when it comes to women & allow egregious abuses of power by senior volunteers to go unchecked, so…

If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence. If suspended you’d be expected to atone for your sins (ie for questioning their wisdom) & produce reams of documentation to prove you are not Evil Transphobe Of Doom.

I wonder if that is what happened when issues are raised about some of the cohort of 'male bodied' personages who have infiltrated involved themselves with GG. For whatever reasons; which beg a question or two.

Or, do those on high in GG just reserve this reaction for the women who are trying to make sure safeguarding is not thrown aside?

AJ, please be very careful with what you post here: you’ve made yourself identifiable to Girlguiding (unless there are multiple Volunteers in the same situation - not just Volunteers, 28 year old [Assistant] Leaders [allowing for the fact people don’t always make that distinction outside Girlguiding-specific spaces]). The Code of Conduct for Volunteers includes what’s effectively a non-disparagement clause. Which you need when your organisation is an ableist racist shitshow that’s abandoned its founding principles 🤷‍♀️ Selectively applied, naturally, but I know someone whose social media postings contributed to the permanent withdrawal of her membership (in her case, posting about her mental health issues).

If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence. If suspended you’d be expected to atone for your sins (ie for questioning their wisdom) & produce reams of documentation to prove you are not Evil Transphobe Of Doom. If they’re satisfied they’ll let you return; if not, in the bin with you - which can be appealed, but would you want to at that point? (I say “almost certainly” as I’m not blessed/cursed with the sight; but there are some patterns one can predict.)

Wanting to stay for what Guiding - as opposed to Girlguiding - can & should be is understandable. Staying for the girls. (especially if you work with vulnerable girls &/or in a deprived area); staying because otherwise a Unit or Units will close; staying because you’d feel you were letting other people down; staying because a Guide is [part of] who you are: all of that makes sense. But if you want to stay, you have to dance to HQ’s tune - to them “girl-led” is a nonsense to go on funding bids (though in fairness some Units really do take it seriously). They don’t want to hear there are issues with their marvellous plans. (Hence the no-longer-so new Programme being so dire. 🤦‍♀️)

OP are you aware of David Challenor? I believe it was him (now in prison for a horrific rape of a child) and his male born child who now identifies as Aimee, who were heavily involved in influencing GG trans inclusive policy. The fact they haven’t revised their policy even after the truth has come out about David Challenor is extremely worrying. I have written to them often but they are not interested in safeguarding girls.

I'm a former volunteer. I wrote to them about Katie Alcock, essentially saying they were discouraging people from raising legitimate concerns. I know I was not the only one. As long as parents and women volunteers are prepared to put up with this they will do nothing. Subs are rising because "In the past few years, the Girlguiding membership has reduced by a about a quarter, from around 500,000 to nearer 370,000." (source is their website) This is blamed on the pandemic and a shortage of volunteers - some truth to that but membership is not recovering to former levels. They still do not recognise that concerns about the lack of proper safeguarding deters volunteers and discourages parents.

Good luck OP - and thank you for trying!

I have nothing real to add, OP, but it was exactly this issue that got me involved in this fight. My children are adult, neither they nor I had ever been involved in GG but I just could not believe the organisation was so utterly stupid. This was before I had learned words such as captured.

Sadly they are far from alone.