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Original poster

Girlguiding Brownie leader raising concerns

86 replies

AJNorthWest · 23/11/2022 10:19

Hey all, I think I'm in the right place for this.

I have been a Brownie leader for 10 years now, since I was 18, and was a Brownie myself as a child. For the last year or so I have been more aware of the takeover of gender ideology and seen it seeping into every single-sex area you could think of.

I have recently challenged Girlguiding on their "inclusion policy" and their self-description of themselves being a "girl-only trans inclusive space". It turns out that this has been their stance since 2018. So since 2018 Girlguiding has been a mixed-sex space, without calling itself that, and leaders and parents are unaware of this.

I sent a long email to the Volunteer Support team asking for some clarification on their language, their stance, and safeguarding. They have now responded, without addressing my concerns, and asked me to answer a hypothetical scenario (presumably to prove I'm not a threat to Girlguiding and the members) within 2 weeks otherwise they will "take further action".

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is other than to seek some common sense. I'm feeling very alone in this, but I know others have the same concerns, it's just really difficult to speak out!

For anyone who would like to back me on this or add their input to my response, drop me a message - I'm gathering concerned leaders and parents together in the hope that our numbers will get the point across.

OP posts:
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Eggybrains · 21/02/2023 12:16

@AJNorthWest what happened?

Let me guess - they don't give a sh*t because they're arrogant and don't care about keeping girls safe?

Beginningless · 28/01/2023 22:26

Well done OP. I loved my time in Brownies and Guides and assumed my girls would go, but would not sign them up due to the safeguarding concerns.

StillWeRise · 28/01/2023 22:08

sadly not
apparently they are 'primarily' for girls

Carpetmoth · 28/01/2023 18:22

@ButterflyBiscuit The Girls' Brigade is still a single-sex organisation (and long may it continue).

ladymalfoy45 · 28/01/2023 18:08

@NitroNine I'd volunteer. I'd even devise the criteria for a Doctor Who badge.

mb2512cat · 28/01/2023 17:37

Girlguiding members: anyone going in uniform to KJK #LetWomenSpeak in London tomorrow?

Babasghost · 22/01/2023 10:37

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Apologies I miss read your message!
As you were

Totally agree gra does not confer sex based rights

mb2512cat · 22/01/2023 08:43

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Are you a member of Girlguiding? There are indeed exemptions in the EA 2010 to permit sex discrimination in certain circumstances- typically against males - so that female-only spaces, services, roles and sports can exist.

underneaththeash · 21/01/2023 22:38

This has been raised many times. As a leader You decide who goes on unit holidays with your unit. I wouldn’t allow any to men to come with us. Nor would I admit any boys to the unit.
I make that clear to parents too.

we don’t go to large scale events or day events with units outside my district anyway fir safeguarding reasons.

Babasghost · 21/01/2023 22:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

mb2512cat · 21/01/2023 16:40

I argue that Girlguiding can’t unilaterally go from a single-sex organisation to a single-gender identity organisation. Their constitution says they are “…for the primary object of educating girls and young women to help them develop emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually so that they can make a positive contribution to their community and the wider world…”.

In addition their registration with the Charity Commission says their ‘Activities - how the charity spends its money:

TO PROMOTE THE EDUCATION OF GIRLS AND YOUNG WOMEN TO HELP THEM DEVELOP EMOTIONALLY, MENTALLY, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE A POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TO THEIR COMMUNITY AND THE WIDER WORLD.’

I say make self ID puts them in breach of both their Constitution as well as their Charity Commission registration. As the law stands they can be single-sex and lawfully exclude both males with and without a GRC, or admit those males, to female-only roles, with a GRC.

If they admit males to female-only roles without a GRC, I’d argue they open themselves up to a claim of sex discrimination against males who want those roles as now they are mixed sex.

Beamur · 21/01/2023 12:14

Transboys and kids NB but female at birth are still eligible to join.

Transparent2 · 21/01/2023 10:51

Beamur · 05/01/2023 14:08

GG were perfectly legally safe in excluding boys and men, regardless of identity. Changing this was a choice based on - I suspect - a genuine, if misguided attempt to be inclusive.
I help out with a unit and enjoy doing so, but am fully aware that my personal feelings are not consistent with GG policies. I toe the line as long as it's in theory only. I will leave if the unit admits boys as Guides or men as Leaders. It's their choice as an organisation to do this, but not something I would be comfortable with.
OP - if you want to stay in Guiding be very careful what you say. The people in charge currently have doubled down and are wedded to this approach. They would rather see volunteers leave than deviate. Whilst the outcome of cases with Maya Forstater and Katie Alcock have clarified that it's fine to hold GC views in law, GG policies are very clear on whom GG welcomes now.
Their website has been updated and says that GG is a single gender organisation not single sex. The guidelines around residentials are better than they were when this was first introduced. But be under no illusions about your views being listened to.

If GG is now a ‘single gender’ organisation, it raises the question what is their policy on transboys? They are obviously girls, but apparently not ‘female gender’. Does GG exclude them as a matter of policy, or are GG not actually ‘single gender’ as they claim?

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 12:30

This is going to sound "ageist", and it probably is, but in the area where I volunteered, the average age of Leaders (Rainbow, Brownie, Guide and Ranger) was probably mid sixties - we had a couple of Leaders who were 80+. They are still there I think.

Most of the Leaders in my District were still living in the bygone age where women didn't work outside of the home, and weren't really up to date with the huge change in the workplace and the larger world that's taken place over regarding inclusivity and diversity etc. They hadn't really changed the way they "Guided" for 50 years, in some cases!

I had so many heated conversations with them about things such as a doctor without a first aid cert isn't an appropriate first aider, and that being a doctor doesn't necessarily mean you are up to date with first aid techniques, or about what "including" a child in a wheelchair really means... I could go on. It used to really frustrate me!

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 12:08

Have also messaged you now too.

7Worfs · 20/01/2023 12:01

OP, might be worth contacting media at some point (unfortunately only a few would touch the subject).
It’s a blunt tool but imagine the headlines: “GG CEO refuse to meet with parents and volunteers over safeguarding concerns”.

inigomontoyahwillcox · 20/01/2023 11:58

I don't have a child in Girlguiding anymore (she was a brownie but left years ago) but just wanted to say BRAVO for not letting this go and pursuing it legally.

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 11:53

I've replied on your other thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4724285-have-you-raised-concerns-with-girlguiding-join-me?reply=123237558&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I'd be happy to support and join in with any in person approach to GGUK.

Ex Brownie Leader and ex District Commissioner - I resigned over this matter, before I was sacked for my public comments. I couldn't bring myself to approve REN forms where men were present at an event and I was unable to call this out to parents, and raise this as a risk, or do anything to mitigate the risk.

gmmm · 20/01/2023 11:23

Well done AJNORTHWEST. You are very brave - and organised.

I pulled DD out of Brownies soonest when I realised what was happening there within GG.

The guide leader posing with her gun & fetishist clothing did it for me…

TheHarpySings · 20/01/2023 11:12

Hi AJNorthWest, I’m an ex volunteer with a daughter currently in Brownie. Have tried to send you a PM but am not able to for some reason, but I am interested in joining.

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 20/01/2023 10:11

Well done, amazing work 👏 🙌 👍

Original poster
AJNorthWest · 20/01/2023 10:04

I've already signed it but thank you for sharing it!

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 20/01/2023 10:00

@AJNorthWest thank you for doing all this. My kids have aged out of guides and weren't interested in taking it further. I'd be very dubious about then going with the situation as it stands atm.

I know you have a lot on your plate, but please consider asking people to sign and share the following petition to strengthen the Equality Act.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

Obviously, feel free to ignore.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 20/01/2023 09:46

I think the group meeting is an excellent idea - makes it much harder to dismiss as one-off or minority concerns. Good luck.