The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

Quite.

I have absolutely no problem at all with anyone be they gay, straight, trans, bi, vegan, whatever.

I have a major problem with being intentionally manipulated and deceived, which means i'm being used without consent to meet someone else's needs. And I have a very major problem with male people feeling entitled to smash female people's boundaries and destroy their equality and access, and exclude them from anywhere, in order to have their preferred choice of everywhere.

That behaviour is wholly unacceptable. The person's gender identity or any other characteristic is irrelevant.

If I found out that someone I'd talked to as a woman, and spoken about the burden of housework, the difficulties of menstruation and the birth horror stories, only to discover they were a passing TW, I would feel embarrassed, humiliated, betrayed and deceived. The information I share with men and women is very different. I therefore dont understand how "passing" is a good thing. Does this make me a transphobe or a bad person? I don't really know.

It's everyone's business what's between someone else's legs, when they are a space reserved for women.

I agree that someone's appearance or how someone else assesses that appearance has very little to do with whether a person is male or female.

That is the thing that matters in the relatively few situations where sex matters. Not amazing bone structure etc...

What @nilsmousehammer said.

One person's 'nice trans friend' will be violating other women's spaces by using their work loos, changing facilities etc. What about religious women? He will be breaking what to them is a sacred taboo.

We have to draw a line in the sand, no exceptions.

We have to work to get the laws amended to clearly uphold our rights.

Of course it matters. Male people have male bodies and grew up.with male privilege. Women have been treated badly because of what is between their legs. Your friend does not have that history. To pretend it doesn't matter is either short sighted or disingenuous. Regardless of whether your friend convinces people or not they have no right to be in women's sports and women's shortlists. You can't identify out of the privilege you've had and have.

Sadly, no it's not a different debate.

It's this one.

Male supremacism is being fixed in law in Scotland right now, propped up with the whole 'but sometimes you can't tell' thing at the root of it. None of this is innocent at present, the whole damned mess is all one interconnected spiderweb of manipulation, and it is destroying female rights, access, equality.

@nilsmousehammer I didn't say anything about single sex spaces and I certainly didn't say anything about anyone being more valuable than anyone else. Stop putting words into my mouth.

(Bowing out of this thread now).

And does it even matter?

Yes.

It really, really does.

See my post above. It cannot be all the time and only about TQ+ people. And the whole 'my lovely friend' (not my Nigel) is disingenous at best.

Some of us also have lovely friends who are not TQ+ but from other protected characteristics, and are losing equality of access to society and losing any space or any resource at all, so that your lovely friend can have their first preferred choice from everything. Are you ok with that?

Are TQ+ people more valuable and important than other people?

Is it ok for some people to lose everything if they're just from boring old minorities who aren't so cool to hang about with and don't have nice flags and parades and remembrance days and a lot of street cred for being an ally to?

Are you into societal inequality and exclusion for females?

@nilsmousehammer I don't think I said anything about single sex/ female spaces, that's a different debate and yes a very difficult one.

My point is simply in response to OP, that people actually cannot tell someone's sex as often as they think they can. When it's obvious it's obvious, but you don't know when you don't know.

Well someone accidentally mentioned it to one person a few years back - said person was utterly shocked and the friend in question was absolutely devastated. The person who found out has been sworn to secrecy and it hasn't been mentioned since.

I shouldn't have to say 'trust me, it's convincing'. It is, but ultimately it shouldn't matter whether it's 'convincing' because the point is that it's actually no one's business what's between my friend's legs. I knew them when they were mid-transition and it was less convincing. So what? It's no less upsetting when small minded people made judgmental comments, whether or not you can 'tell'.

People need to accept that sometimes they can't tell a person's sex by looking at them. You might have met a man who is actually a woman, or a woman who is actually a man, and not known. Is that so hard to believe? And does it even matter?

You only know what you know.

Yes but some people do.want to be out hence why no single passing TW in the public sphere? I think if it were not hugely rare we'd expect at least a couple

But this is merely leverage to say to females because you might not notice this one, you cannot say no to that one - who has a beard and is very male presenting and is extremely intimidating and very very obviously a male in the female space. It's just the end of the wedge to try and smash women's boundaries.

It has been tried. The GRA was the compromise of 'a very few, who have been through the full transition', and that has been used to mean 'any male at any time of any presentation and stuff the impact and exclusion of females that they cause tee hee hee sucks to be you'. There is no gatekeeping on the door. There is no form of drawing a line between who absolutely passes, who passes sometimes, who thinks they pass but doesn't, and who is triumphantly marching in knowing the shock value causing and waving a sword for any female who objects (or if you're Izzard, chasing you down the street to shout at you about male entitlement to do wtf Izzard likes unhindered by the needs of females).

If it is one it is all. So it cannot be any. It was not females who smashed any good will or trust. This is now a male issue to fix. No males should be entering female spaces and breaking female boundaries and excluding females in order to meet their own needs, regardless of their personal appearance.

Apart from overall size (in relation to males) I find my attention drawn by other factors that don't add up. An unnatural sounding voice, or gestures and facial expressions that look learned.
When I'm watching TV I find myself thinking, why did they film that actor at that strange angle? Why has the camera suddenly pulled out for that shot? Why does that actor have so much more makeup on than the other actors? Why have the editors dubbed in someone else's voice? So it's often something like that that gets my attention initially.

@fruitsaladsweets
I think you make a reasonable point, but it is much, much harder for a man to pass as a woman than a woman to pass as a man. I remember watching The Crying Game and suddenly realising "Oh, so that's the actor that nobody is supposed to guess is male." Admittedly I knew beforehand there was a male playing a female in it, but it was immediately obvious who it was.

The Yorkshire Guide to gender bollocks.

Spot on 😘

My friend would not be 'out' because they do not want being trans to define their life and how people view them. That is the reason they do not even tell people who didn't know them 15 years ago. It's a part of their history but now they just want to move on and live their life.
So if the person isn't 'out', and presumably you don't mention it to newer friends either - how do you know these newer friends don't know the persons sex but are also not bringing it up?

I imagine it's because they have worked hard to get where they are, and would like to just move on with their lives rather than have people judge how 'convincing' or not they may be, and constantly have to explain themselves.

My friend would not be 'out' because they do not want being trans to define their life and how people view them. That is the reason they do not even tell people who didn't know them 15 years ago. It's a part of their history but now they just want to move on and live their life.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I see what you mean but I think it's very rare. All TW in the public sphere are obviously male. Why would there be not a single out TW who passes if its not very rare?

I have no idea if I'm trans myself, let alone other people's inner genders - no-one will clarify enough for me to identify for sure. It's possible I'm agender, going by some definitions, although I wouldn't say I 'identify' as it - I either am or aren't!

But this thread is about identifying sex, not trans status.

You think you can 'tell', but how do you actually know, if you don't know? (If you see what I mean). You don't.

I agree with this - you're unlikely to come across information that proves you've gotten someone's sex wrong.

Female or male at birth, Fruits?

There's a difference.

Well it's only obvious when its obvious. You will likely have met/ seen trans people and not even known that they were trans.

You think you can 'tell', but how do you actually know, if you don't know? (If you see what I mean). You don't. You only know when it is obvious.

I have a trans friend who has been living their life in their chosen gender for about 15 years, and newer friends have no idea that they were previously a different gender.

@BloodAndFire I had a similar (but less obnoxious) experience with a character I was 90% sure was a man (only 90%, because, being a woman, I kept my back firmly turned to him all the time). In a tiny changing room.
At the time I didn't know what to do.
Now I understand the issues, and my rights, I would be out of there and screaming the place down.

That makes more sense. And it sounds like this person knows they don't pass, just toning down anything remotely 'macho' which is fine.

It's weird. Some women and some young men can be androgynous in appearance but even if you genuinely can't tell from looking at them, a quick conversation would sort that out. Men and women have very different voices. This is how I know the video linked to earlier is a load of tosh. Even if the woman doing the confronting had a visual impairment and was unable to see the obvious female face, the obvious female voice would have been a dead give away. I suppose it's theoretically possible the woman was also hearing impaired - but she was responding in conversation easily enough.

I do agree it is about control. Some penis havers who go around with their beards and chest hair sticking over their shirts. They must know they're not read as women, but they demand we call them women (often with threats of violence) because it's about them controlling our words and our perceptions. It's about making us to afraid to say what is in front of us. It must be an absolute head rush for them.