The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

I know that experiment well, but sniffing T-shirts exclusively worn by men and rating how nice they smell isn’t any sort of evidence that women can always tell the sex of a person when at normal social distance out and about.

If it had been an experiment where women were given T-shirts worn by either sex and asked to predict the sex of who wore the shirt by sniffing it, then that would be interesting and have at least a little bit of relevance.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15135965/

Another one.

along with amusing anecdotes regarding ‘man’ smells.

Well I mentioned an actual experiment but you appear to have missed that.

Well, since “good chance” is purely subjective, it doesn’t require evidence as it’s an opinion, not a fact.

I have demonstrated that the premise that women can always tell a TW from a natal woman is false. That was stated as a fact, not an opinion by other posters.
along with amusing anecdotes regarding ‘man’ smells.

You're still failing to provide evidence of it being a 'good chance' that a person you think is a TW is a real woman. Do you have any or is your evidence just one time thats happenes? Because 'good chance' suggests a reasonably high likelihood not a remote possibility. What do you think of the examples I gave. Is there a good chance the person in the video is a real woman? It's that much of a slam dunk when I see males 'presenting as women' on a regular basis.

To be clear, I agree that there is a possibility I don't think it's very big at all but either way it is not an argument for making all female spaces mixed sex and it does not negate the OPs original point.

Somebody mistaking a woman for a transwoman does not show that women cannot tell.. Yes it does show that one cannot always tell the sex of another person.

they have fallen for the belief they can't tell to such an extent that they are so worried a man is in disguise near them they get paranoid & falsely assume any slightly more androgynous looking woman might be a fake. A fear based mistake is NOT a logic fail.. These brainwashing and fear comments are merely the reasons why you think they cannot tell.

Doesnt change the fact that the statement that we can always tell another person’s sex (even if blind!) is patently false.

But then again, most exaggerations using “always” or “never” are usually false.

I know an elderly person with advanced dementia who 'accurately' smiles at men and scowls at women....the sex attraction drive is strong and innate...

A male entered my home to do some work a few months back (I didn't know about it as it was arranged by someone else as a surprise while I was away).

While they were there, they used the toilet.
They were clean, they flushed the toilet, left nothing on the floor etc..

2 days later when I came home, I could smell a man had been in my home before I even got up the stairs.

So, don't tell me I can't smell men even if I can't see them.
In a controlled environment, I can smell them days later if they pee.

They emit pungent odours which linger.
I suspect this comes from the same biological basis as the scent marking that some animals use to mark their territory with their urine, or other animals who rub up against things to leave their scent.

I cannot smell if a clean woman has used my toilet for a pee even on the same day.
I can always smell if a late teen or adult male has used my bathroom & unless I deep clean the room it takes a couple of days for the smell to go.

If you walk into a public ladies toilet & a man has used it, you can smell it.
It's the same overbearing smell that repels women from the mens toilets, presumably because we are bombarded with territorial marking scents from many sources all at once.

Explain how that reality is a logic fail?
Or, are you suggesting we are some kind of magical exception to all the other mammal and that humans don't actually scent mark?

Strange.
You can smell when people have just had sex unless they've washed really well, their bedroom smells of sex unless it's been cleaned, but you think you can't smell the sex of a human being?

Or do you just not want to believe the truth?

Somebody mistaking a woman for a transwoman does not show that women cannot tell.
It just shows that they have fallen for the belief they can't tell to such an extent that they are so worried a man is in disguise near them they get paranoid & falsely assume any slightly more androgynous looking woman might be a fake.
A fear based mistake is NOT a logic fail.
It's a reasonable fear of the violent sex that men who say they are not men are part of.

In terms of my evidence, the people I see all the time look like this

Or Eddie Izzard.

I.e. very obviously male and never seen a woman present like that (androgynous woman are hugely different)

Well I think sometimes (v.v. rarely) people will be mistaken but that is a far cry from suggesting that there is a good chance (rather then feeling possibility) that the person you think is a TW is an actual woman (I'm guessing you mean natal type - i.e. actual because if not then this sentence is meaningless).

But if you say you have evidence to support this, can you share it?

How is this less extreme than saying there is a “good chance” a person we think is a TW is actually woman?

You're going to have to explain this sentence - what do you mean by 'woman' here?

That’s exactly what they are saying: that we can always tell, even if we are blind.
How is this less extreme than saying there is a “good chance” a person we think is a TW is actually woman? My conclusion is at least evidence based. I’m not justifying any use of any spaces. I’m responding to the OPs thread and several comments of over confident people who mistakenly think they can always tell a born man from a born woman, even if blind.

Nope. No-one is saying you can always tell. You, however, are saying that because occasionally people don't spot that the person is in fact male (or vice versa), this means that there is a 'good chance' the person is actually a woman. Your conclusion does not follow from your statement. You make a leap in order to try and justify 'nice trans women' using any spaces which they see fit to do so.

Sorry, meant to, add it also leaves door wide open to men who can merely say they’re women while hiding their camera or arousal in their trousers till the coast is clear to commit an offence.

The OP quite reasonably said the vast majority can tell so why the pretence.

Anti women posters always pop on with their anecdotes to inadvertently prove that the vast majority was an accurate statement.

This for me gets to heart of the matter.

up until just a few years ago, this wasn’t on dashboard of most women concerns.

but I am very sure in my life ( ok I’m nearly 60 so it’s a lot of loos) I’ve shared toilet space with trans women- I’ve just not known it. And in not knowing it it hasn’t bothered me.

and the reason I’ve not known it was any trans woman entering female space had to be a very good pass, discrete, and not draw attention to themselves. Probably like most women using loos anyway. They would have had to be dressed in “everyday” woman’s clothes suitable for the situation. So, if I’d gone into M&S and seen a person in jeans, coat , long hair , not glamour make up, not drawing attention I probably wouldn’t have taken much notice. But, If I’d gone into M&S on a Saturday morning and seen a woman applying makeup to an already glamour/sexualised made up face for sometime, asking for tampon or even engaging in any conversation with strangers, sexy skirt, sexy heels, sexy cleavage in very low top, I’d certainly taken a second glance with a “ that’s a bit odd”. if I’d then seen a 6 foot frame, broad shoulders and heavy brow then I’d have clocked it, felt very uncomfortable and started to consider what I should do such as alerted someone

but the point is, I never did see that pre a few years back ( in fairness I’ve only seen it once since but I live a sheltered life now 🤣🤣) . Because woman’s spaces were for women, and we and officials could gatekeeper , the trans women in second example mostly wouldn’t have taken that risk of being challenged, or if on occasions it did happen would have been called out and challenged.

and the difference between the 2 trans women in question? Probably the first has genuine body dysphoria ( maybe even transitioned medically) and the second autogynophelia , or what we used to call transvestite, or drag

The fact we could gate keep meant we could object if it was apparent and that sent a clear signal to autogynaphilia/ queer community that women did not want to be coerced into non consensual involvement in their public sexual predilections.

The right of men to be allowed to self identify and get into womens single sexed spaces has left the door right open to the sort of men who absolutely should be kep,t out - the ones who always passed unnoticed were probably, in the main, not a risk . I’d probably think, they”ll be none to pleased that TRA are shining a bit too much light on who is in woman’s single sex spaces.

Men and women look different, smell different, walk differently and stand differently.
The ones where you can’t tell someone’s sex are incredibly rare and even then if you get close you can tell.
Interestingly I find it’s even easier for women to be able to know someone’s sex

Exactly my point, the initial statements of

Alltheprettyseahorses · Yesterday 08:03
“the bleating that you can't always tell doesn't work in the slightest.”

BloodyHellKen · Yesterday 09:42
“In real life you can tell, especially trans women.”

Brokendaughter · Yesterday 10:42
“Even the blind can tell the difference between anyone born a man or a woman.”

Are all complete logic fails.

I think we under estimate the role of smell in sexual attraction- and pheromones

wmen are known to have more acute sense of smell than men, and that it changes over menstrual cycle… hmm not surprising

most other mammals use smell to check out potential mates- I don’t know why some people think that cannot apply to humans

I have long, long been posting on here about how appearances are not really relevant. Then when I ask TRAs questions, they usually bring it back to appearances. "What, even someone who looks like THIS isn't a woman?"

If you think that trans means you want to be the opposite sex, you want to be treated as the opposite sex, then of course appearance matters - you adopt the visual shortcuts that will indicate you present as the opposite sex.

That has zero to do with an inner feeling of gender identity where "gender identity" is entirely decoupled from physical sex.

So it happens rarely and that means there's a good chance the person is actually a woman. Wow! That's a logical complete fail isn't it!

I'm very tired of the 'you're getting paranoid and being mean to masculine presenting women' thing.

The reason female people are having to get suspicious and paranoid about whether someone is or is not female is because male people broke the trust and force entry to female spaces.

This is like blaming someone for asking you not to stand on their foot.

Just saying

Can’t always tell. Not even after being pressed face to face in a protest with only a piece of cardboard between your bodies and taunting each other. I am of course referring to Jeanna Hoch in Tacoma Washington who illegally bear maced a natal female woman for almost, but not quite, spitting on her.

At first Jeanna claimed the woman was a TW, but later on chased her down and got on camera that she was a bona fide XX woman. And then posted all this and joined in on mocking the woman’s looks and attractiveness.

So, no you can’t always tell. Jeanna mistook a woman for a TW. So there’s a good chance that the TWs you think you are seeing and being freaked out by are actually just women.

Does it really need to be said that just because women are not pointing at TW in public and going “you’re a man!!!!” that it means we think they pass??

it means we’re being kind or tactful or we’re scared of what would happen if we pointed it out

I’m so tired of pointing out the obvious reasons why in real life, women don’t announce to TW that they don’t pass 🤦🏻‍♀️