The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

Here is more on the hips.

archive.ph/u4oSa

Remember when we all had to wear face masks in public?
It was still easy to see whether someone was a man or a women, no matter what they wore.

Yes it's really hard to distinguish between transwomen and women. None of that stuff is actually necessary.

Said no-one on either side of the discussion, ever.

Exceptions prove the rule of course.
The occasional transwoman may fool the occasional woman,
On occasion a woman may be mistaken for a man by the odd woman.

By and large, it's not hard to distinguish between men and women.

It's so incredibly tragic that anyone would have all that (painful and expensive) surgery on a healthy body. Not to mention after going through all that a male physique will never be able to naturally and unthinkingly walk like a female physique because of the different hip physiology so it will still stand out a mile.

Hopefully, one day men who want to present as women by wearing traditional feminine clothing will wise up to the cash cows they have become. They will turn their backs on expensive and painful surgery and hormones and just say I'm a man and this is how I want to dress, deal with it. It will be free and so much less damaging.

Ditto women and their 'top-surgery' or as it's called in medicine, bilateral mastectomy.

Just adding this link to the thread. It is a price list of just what 'facial feminisation' entails.

www.thelondontransgenderclinic.uk/price-list/

So the facial features that a male needs to change to better simulate a female's face starts with the following (alphabetically listed):

Brow lift
Cheek enhancement
Chin reduction / shaping
Eye feminisation
fat grafting
Forehead / brow contouring
Hairline lowering
Jaw shaping
Rhinoplasty (this may also include the change to the nasal columella to around 95 degrees which is different to 'male', removing a normally bulbous nasal tip, )
Thyroid shave / Adams apple reduction
Upper lip lift (I wonder if this is to give the 'v' which is a female trait vs the 'u' of males. OR could be combined with the rhinoplasty to change the space between the nose and lip which is shorter in females than males according to many cosmetic surgery sites. I guess if you shorter this you also emphasise that nasal columella angle to be more like a female angle)

I can only assume that the image attached is an aspirational before and after.

I cannot quite understand posters who seem to be determined to tell us that sex cannot be intuitively and quite accurately understood from unsurgically altered male faces. I am quite sure that Sal Grover could come and tell us what her algorithm measures as it is rather accurate which is why a transitioned male was taking her to court regarding access to Giggle.

So, combined with face and general skeletal proportions such as males having bigger heads and longer arms and legs, bigger hands and feet, different angles of bones in hips/legs etc, I suspect that some posters are either really not very observant about the specifics of male faces and anatomy.

Or determined to spread misinformation about people 'not being able to tell that is a male' for whatever reason.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00320/full

Table 2 shows that sex can be identified from gait by the study cohort with 65% accuracy just from dots on the joints over a 3.8 second duration.

I cannot find the links I am after.... but this is a start. The explanation from Samphire at 17/05/2022 16:18.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4549905-standing-for-women-manchester-event-sun-15-may?page=10&reply=117298655

Yes, I prefer it to things like 'transwoman' as it's clearer and more accurate. Public surveys show that the general public often think 'transwoman' means a biological woman presenting as a man.
I am very worried about the distortion and suppression of language in this arena.

Yes, double standards apply.

DameHelena, the reason that acronym is banned is because it uses clear language that correctly sexes individuals. This disrupts the performance, accurately described above as a giant sexist game of Let's Pretend.

I got a post deleted for a phrase that means painful lexemes/emotions. Again, correct language must be suppressed.

DameHelena - for some reason that useful descriptive term, 'counterbalanced' by the idiotic 'cis', are explicitly mentioned in the guidelines. But posts discussing 'cis' or using it in a general way are (rightly) normally not deleted whereas the one you used rarely escapes the notice of the 'monitors' and gets deleted. I'm afraid we just have to use other alternatives even if they're less accurate or concise.

No, it's certainly not consistent. Go figure.

@DameHelena
That explanation makes no sense! They must just have a list of words or phrases that someone has decreed are unacceptable, because there is no logic.

So this thread has moved on, but I’d like to share MN’s response when I asked why I was deleted. It was because my post contained an acronym, often used in this sort of discussion, which rhymes with 'rim', in the context of me having seen lots of arguments along the lines of 'you can't tell, lots of RIMs[[term changed by me] pass, they've been using women's spaces for ever'.
I was told by MNHQ that this isn't 'civil language when discussing these issues' and they 'didn't feel the post was in the spirit of the site.’
I asked why the term ’TERF’ is commonly seen on MN despite the language in that term's full expression (specifically 'exclusionary’) arguably being less civil. In a quite admirable piece of deflection/disingenuity, MNHQ said 'When"terf" is used as a personal insult, we would indeed remove it. Please do report any of those posts to us.’
I pointed out that I didn't I didn't use ‘RIM' as a personal insult.
The response (in shortened form): 'context is everything – but our moderation team will most likely delete these expressions if we feel they're being used in a deliberately inflammatory way.’
I replied that I would struggle to understand how my post could be read as using the term in a deliberately inflammatory way. That’s where the discussion ended.
So I’m not really any the wiser as to why my post was deleted when other very much more insulting/inflammatory ones are allowed to stand.

I can believe that a FtM transitioner might decide to change in the men’s on point of principal. Some of the most successful transactivists are FtM and there have been reports of them being turfed out of gay men’s spaces before. This isn’t all one way traffic, it’s that we talk more about how women are affected than men, for various reasons. Doesn’t mean there’s no effect on men.

Every other month or so there’s a report of a natal woman confronted by someone mistaking her for a TW.

I’ve seen three such reports. One was the unconvincing film where a very obvious female had a weird interaction in a toilet with a woman who was either completely irrational or (more likely) reciting from a script written by a transactivist who hasn’t listened to women and doesn’t understand why women are objecting to men in their spaces.

The second was an obviously female lesbian, reported in several different outlets, who on investigation turned out to be a high ranking member of staff at Stonewall, who therefore has a vested interest in lying.

The third is the one you mentioned upthread, which I haven’t looked into, but if it did occur as described, it sounds like adrenaline might have played a significant part. When adrenaline is rushing through my body, I know I’m not always particularly rational.

So can you back up your sweeping statement that these reports are coming “every month or so” with evidence please? And no, I’m not going to look it up. You made a claim, it’s up to you to back it up or risk it being dismissed.

Anyway, going back to the title of the thread, the demand for a pretence is an attempt to exert authoritarian power and control on a global scale, and on an individual scale, emotional blackmail sometimes backed up with a credible threat of violence. Those who comply are virtue signalling, going along with the herd, being kind/progressive or intimidated.
Reality will win in the end.

I know but it just made the men feel uncomfortable. I’m not making it up. I was aghast.

Women being excluded from rape crisis centres, pushed out of their sports, being locked in a prison cell with a male....not immeasurable harm. Hastag everday sexism.

Men not allowed to have everything they want, including having everyone pretend to believe in their fantasies = “immeasurable harm”.

Ah yes, we’re familiar with that.

Are these the 3 quotes where you allege that people have said that 100% of the time you can tell?

Re-read them, that's not what they say.

You said you have evidence but then you refuse to post it and instead tell other posters to google it. No, you post it. You said you already had it which should mean that you've siphoned through the reams of false news and propaganda to find actual real news and incidents. Great, then post it.

Do you mean this one @Helleofabore ?

What are you talking about?

Biological women don't need to justify themselves or their biological truth.

Women are not the ones causing immeasurable harm.

Just look up the statistics across the world for violent crimes.
It is not biological women who are the cause of the overwhelming majority of it.

That's down to all the kinds of men, however they say they identify.

has this study been posted?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/