Just despair - HOW do some women just not get it!

Sure. They say things like: gender is the social meaning of sex, where that means it's the collection of traits, behaviours, preferences and personality types that are socially ascribed to people who have, or are perceived to have, a given body type. Being a woman is identifying with the gender that society ascribes to women (in the sex sense).

To be clear, I am what they would call a TERF - I think that sex, and sex based discrimination is what matters. But I am not baffled by their position, I don't think it's incoherent or deranged or so insane it's staggering that anyone could think it. I just think that they're wrong, and my interest in finding out exactly what they think and how they define things like 'women' comes from wanting to really point out where they go wrong (unless of course they change my mind before I change theirs...)

Depressing. Saw someone actually censor the word woman on social media the other day as “w*man” comments were interesting.

Sorry, this one.

I don't get it either...

My DC's friend's mum is apparently a feminist, very much believes that girls can and should be able to do anything, refuses gender conformity, buys 'strong girls' books, against 'pink/fairies/glitter is for girls' etc etc. Yet is a self-professed TWAW 'ally', a huge fan of drag queens etc.

And now has this book on her DC's Amazon wishlist 🤮

Sucks you in with it doesn't matter if you're a girl or boy, you can wear pink or blue, have your hair short or long, girls can be engineers etc.

But then... There's a picture of a a baby(!) with "Girl or boy?" above it and things like, "Boy or girl doesn't cover everyone..."

Am dreading the day their DC is old enough to start indoctrinating mine...

I am 100% radfem through and through and accept that other people have beliefs that seem illogical to me. I don't think women should be held to a higher standard and I'm not comfortable with the idea that because I think I'm right other women need to be 'convinced' to fall in line.

Even if I feel that everyone whose beliefs don't exactly align with my own are deluded, people are free to have their own views.

I feel the same about journalist/author Elizabeth Day. Her “How to Fail” book helped me through a really tough time and I enjoy listening to her podcast.

But then I discovered she was full on TWAW (in her most recent podcast she referred to her own husband as a “cis-male”. Her interview with feminist icon Gloria Steinem a few years ago was so disappointing as both of them preached TWAW 😤

I REALLY wish all the people saying that they believe men role playing as women really are women would give their definition of ‘woman’, or as a pp says, acknowledge that they can’t

and then maybe think about why they can’t define a commonly used and understood word

i know these people don’t think the definition is important. But finding myself in a position where my beliefs prevent me from communicating with people using simple, basic words would worry me if I were in that position

Sorry, just seen OP has identified as a TERF! Another term that has different meanings...

I'd be wary of calling people TERFS when they have given no indication that anyone's trans status would exclude them from feminism. IME whether someone is trans or not has nothing to do with whether feminism should fight for female people.

InPraise when you say 'trans people' do you mean people that strongly want to be the opposite sex, or those that think sex and gender are unrelated and it's gender identity that determines if you are a man or a woman? I appreciate your post. It would be good to clarify just so we can be sure we're talking on the same page.

It's probably no consolation but I find your stance as a TERF just as peculiar. However, I think people are entitled to their opinions and they shouldn't be hounded for daring to have them or even being suspected of having them.

@InPraiseOfBacchus Thank you for a very interesting and informative comment.

I actually agree with you re the taking up of an anti-trans cause as simply another front in the political "culture wars". Some of the right-wing people are not in favour of my kind of progressive feminism.

I have to admit to finding it hard for a man to say "I feel like a woman". My womanhood is not a feeling. It's a lived mental, physical and social experience. How can anyone else, especially male, imagine how that feels? How can you anticipate, react to and handle periods when you have never and will never have them? I have spent years fighting to be taken seriously as a woman and not dismissed as hysterical or having said period - how can men now tell me that is meaningless to being a woman???

Finally, data. I understand the threat to women prisoners is limited to those people but there is a threat to every women from including biological men as women. It skews gender pay gaps and participation figures. It distorts figures on criminals and victims. It could raise the average height of women- changing clothing sizes. It will definitely affect medicine, where women are already badly treated. No more funding for contraception - the figures say women using it have dropped etc etc. We need to be clear about the difference between biological sex and preferred gender if different but the trans movement seems to want the opposite.

I agree. But I couldn't make the argument because it came down to "but it's harming tw to do that". And I wasn't comfortable pushing - I would have avoided the conversation entirely if I could have.

she said that noone should be excluded because of someone's past trauma.

Why not? I mean, it seems reasonable to me that if someone traumatises you, you should be able to keep them away from places that are private or where you're vulnerable. I bet this person is totally okay with all sorts of accomodations being made for others on the basis of their mental health, anxiety, etc. Why so suddenly cold-hearted when it comes to rape victims?

Aunt Lydias.

It's tough.

I think as we go on and as the truth begins yo filter into mainstream it will become increasinhly impossible for peopke ckaiming to be feminists to simply claim they didnf know and were to stupid to do some research.

This means that they are will fully and deliberately attacking us.

This betrayal we feel is strong, that we are fighting for the safety of all women and girls, and they are attacking women and imposing harmful things uponbus to gain /maintain status.

We know that the men they are trying to appease will never elevate them above other males and so they gain only by harming other women and children.

It's a deep betrayal made even harder because we have to recognise that they too are prisoners of the system but have chosen to be volunteer guards.

But if we have only limited ammo then let's aim truly at the men controlling the prison.

On the "everyone gets DBSed" comparison the reaction was "but that harms noone but criminals, gatekeeping harms innocents". I really want someone who can be brutally honest with her to discuss it- as I say, I care about her so can't.

Gah! I'm just ranting now but it made me so sad (and yes, I'll be seen as the bad guy now with a whole big group of people I can't avoid). It is tye first time in the wild I've discussed it with someone so intelligent who can't see the other side at all and who wholeheartedly believes TWAW. Down to her very soul.

Please could you clear this up once and for all, I am asking genuinely because it is never answered: What non-circular definition of 'woman' do you use/ does a 'person who supports transwomen' use?

Can you write it here please, so I know how to support trans women?
If you don't know, could you please acknowledge that?

When it was me, my thinking was along the lines of "trans women are proof that most of what society constructs as Womanhood is just cultural stuff that can equally exist in a male brain. By accepting trans women as valid we detach those constructions from female-hood and thereby weaken their hold on us. Since Trans women suffer just as much under patriarchy as we do, they must be friends to women not a threat. They deserve to be in our spaces for safety and solidarity and so they can raise their voices in support of us."

This is interesting, Flirts.

"what society constructs as Womanhood is just cultural stuff that can equally exist in a male brain" - yep - let's call this 'femininity' for ease of use.

"By accepting trans women as valid we detach those constructions from female-hood and thereby weaken their hold on us" - well, we can and should do that anyway. Of course TW are valid as people, people who are male with feminine aspects. Which is as fine as being male with masculine aspects (probably better actually) and as fine as being female with masculine aspects and as fine as being female with feminine aspects.

So - fem/masculinity can be completely decoupled from female/male biology.

"Since Trans women suffer just as much under patriarchy as we do, they must be friends to women not a threat." I would question this assumption. There are many types of 'suffering' that TW will not experience, and suffering will vary greatly between individuals. Who suffers will in many respects be linked to who is perceived as female, and who is perceived as "incorrectly" feminine, and how this bears out in society's attitudes to them. But of course we shouldn't ignore any suffering as a class.

If fem/masculinity can be completely decoupled from biology, then why is being feminine or masculine any indication of what body you 'should' have? Why do they want to take this decoupling and put it back again?

It's true that when people talk about 'women' they are often talking about "feminine people". And when you point this out, they cannot mentally unlink this from "being female".

If you are fighting for men’s rights to call themselves women to access women’s spaces then you absolutely do need to take the word feminism out of your mouth, because what you are doing is the exact opposite of feminism. You are a men’s rights activist and you should own that.

I disagree with this. A men's right activist supports men in general. Someone who supports transwomen has a more expansive definition of what counts as a woman than you. They take themselves to be supporting women also.

@ArabellaScott not sure I understand your point but I think we’re both on the same page - it’s very hard for people in public life to put their head above the parapet as the repercussions are huge, but equally for those people who work in occupations who put a lot of pressure on staff to “tow the line” the consequences could also be pretty devastating.

I understand why she would be reluctant to be openly GC - although she may not be GC at all 🤷‍♀️.

Me too, absolutely.

It's making life much more difficult for all the non predatory normal transpeople. I honestly think transactivism is making life harder for normal transpeople now. Some of them are speaking out and saying 'not in my name' but receive the same level of hate and vitriol for doing so as women so I can understand why it's difficult for them, plus of course it doesn't fit the media narrative.

100%. This movement isn't helping transpeople at all, and I have every sympathy with those adversely affected.

And I have met Trans people, women and men, who seem very anxious, shy and with low self esteem. They do not appear a threat to anyone. They seem instead very vulnerable.

So what? Does safeguarding get ignored because you know a group of people you personally judge to be 'non-predatory' from your various degrees of knowledge about them.

Or can we just assume that the % of them in the prisons show that similar % of those males are just as predatory as the general male population and that the safeguarding processes should remain just as strong for them as any other male.

Nothing. Nothing good comes from making blanket statements that seek to make a group exempt from safeguarding or to paint them as being 'all good' and therefore nothing can be said about the ones who are dangerous.