Just despair - HOW do some women just not get it!

Given that 98-99% of sex offences are committed by males, I think we can safely presume that very nearly all SOs in prison are male.

This is what I'm on about:

PP says: I suspect that many are sexual predators appropriating a trans identity to use gender distress as a mitigating factor at their trials in the hope of a more lenient sentence or they hope to be housed in the female prison estate. One can only speculate why a sexual predator might find that option appealing.

You respond: Many is it? I suppose I should be grateful you don’t think it’s all. It’s eeerily similar to the “many economic migrants appropriate a refugee identity to use asylum seeking as a mitigating factor at the border in the hope of free housing and benefits. One can only speculate as to why an economic migrant might find that appealing” ….how much of your view is based on bias? Think about it.

What else are you suggesting here other than that these sexual predators are genuinely trans? If that's not what you meant, what did you mean? Because it sounds pretty fucking transphobic to me.

You wonder why the data doesn’t exist? The U.K. Government wanted gender added to the census, and who protested this and then refused to do their census forms? Or spoiled them online? GC protesters so we still don’t know what % of the population is what gender. The police wanted to start collecting data on the transgender identity of criminals and victims, but who protested and blocked this? GC protesters again.

Can you please provide evidence on what you think feminists have done that makes you write this.

What are you on about? I’ve said nothing of the sort.

I am intrigued what we all do in life in order that you can dedicate such time and energy in to this thread on a Monday afternoon 4pm! Work? Children?

Anything?

Omg 😃

It doesn't need to tell us that. It tells us that there are more sex offenders claiming to be trans in prison. That's meaningful because it suggests that there is some reason why sex offenders would identify as trans.

You argued back against the suggestion that there is some benefit to sex offenders to identify as trans, suggesting by way of analogy that they really are trans and not pretending. So surely this statistic should really worry you. Why do you think that there are more trans sex offenders in prison than non-trans? Is this you being transphobic?

It is the same as the argument that there is no evidence of harm to women, only 'incidents' and 'anecdotes'

Refuse to register meaningful data, hide data of one group in another group, refuse to share data, refuse to investigate and you can claim there is no harm in letting any male person request and get a transfer to womens prison with loads of women to harrass and assault in a more lenient and open environment. Any male. Self id remember

Fascinating how much effort Onnabugeisha is putting into trying to rubbish that data. As if we have all sat around looking at it for a year waiting for someone to explain it to us.

Allies that pop up here are without any doubt the most patronising people that post on Mumsnet.

I just don’t understand how these women can see the misogyny everywhere they look

why would I when I am a single parent, in a very good job, dds are happy, thriving and incredibly ambitious.

oh and we are all happy, healthy and financially comfortable.

so no… I sure as heck don’t see “misogyny” everywhere. And I think to say you do, just dilutes the problems that do exist (that I just haven’t encountered)

Wait, so you're arguing that sex criminals are not using trans identities as a way to mitigate their punishment/get placed in female prisons, but that they are genuinely trans?

Others are arguing that sex offenders are appropriating trans identities. You are arguing that sex offenders are genuinely trans.

You sound transphobic @Onnabugeisha

Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

I just don’t think many women do get it, they don’t get the harms, and they are in a bubble where other female friends also don’t get it. I don’t think it’s fear so much.

I think this is because of:

• groupthink - it’s very, very difficult to critically think as an individual against social norms. We have become much more of a group think society, where terminology if you get it even slightly wrong marks you out as not as good in the group.
• lack of access to other thinking - Mumsnet is one of the only places where critical thinking takes place. It doesn’t happen in almost every single workplace.
• the harms to women are not obvious or ‘big’ enough. Not to most women walking around in a groupthink way. Trans agendas are shouting, screaming about the harms to them. Harms to women? Most women just have a vague recollection that some women don’t want to use changing rooms with perfectly harmless TW. This is despite some media coverage of real harms to women, but honestly this is still on page 34 or whatever, nothing headline.
• there is a societal reward for being a trans ally. And Holly Bourne has come out as autistic and been rewarded for that with greater recognition. (No judgement on that, but both being trans ally / autistic or other have real, tangible rewards in terms of sales and access to groups)

Because it tells us nothing about how likely transgender people are to be sex offenders compared to all people. (Btw, the 19% was all prisoners, not male ones). And as a % of prisoners, it gives us zero indication of scale. With no scale, how can we assess risk?

Isn't it convenient then that there is no population data on just how many transitioned males there are in the UK population....

I wonder why that is?

Still, there is enough information there to give an answer to the following question.

Do you agree that transitioned male show that they commit sex crimes at a rate that is closer to males than females?

yes or no

@FOJN
I didn't say trans people were more likely to be sex offenders. I pointed out that sex offenders claiming to be trans are over represented in the prison population.

These are one and the same. Just written in different ways, over-representation= more likely. And you can’t tell they are over-represented with the figures you presumably quoted from somewhere. They’re the wrong data to deduct that.

I suspect that many are sexual predators appropriating a trans identity to use gender distress as a mitigating factor at their trials in the hope of a more lenient sentence or they hope to be housed in the female prison estate. One can only speculate why a sexual predator might find that option appealing.

Many is it? I suppose I should be grateful you don’t think it’s all. It’s eeerily similar to the “many economic migrants appropriate a refugee identity to use asylum seeking as a mitigating factor at the border in the hope of free housing and benefits. One can only speculate as to why an economic migrant might find that appealing” ….how much of your view is based on bias? Think about it.

Your absurd suggestion that the only valid stats would consider sex offenders per capita of the population assumes that every sex offender is detected and convicted or that sex offenders would willingly admit their crimes for the purposes of accurate data collection.

No, doing a per capita calculation does not assume every criminal is detected and convicted. I don’t think you even understand what a per capita calculation is as otherwise you would not have written such nonsense.

It’s standard procedure, it’s how you tell whether there is any over-representation or not. You literally cannot deduct or calculate over-representation by comparing the same statistic between disparate groups.

Okay, so 40% of transgender prisoners are sex offenders compared with 19% of male prisoners.

You still haven't explained why this statistic is meaningless to you.

Yes I did and you have left off the BBC analysis that basically says these figures (41%, 40%) could not be verified and there is no way to tell what gender any transgender prisoner is whether TW, TM or NB.

There is one that I know of.

How many transmen are there in prison in total? If this transman is the only one, then the issue is the numbers are so low, it cannot be used to compare.
Also, in womens prison or mens? I have heard of one woman, not transman, held in male prison, but away from all male population and only because they were too high risk to be kept in the lower security womens prisons. Only mens prisons have high security facilities.

Btw, another incentive for men to self id as women, womens prisons have a more relaxed security setup as women are overall less of a risk.

I didn't say trans people were more likely to be sex offenders. I pointed out that sex offenders claiming to be trans are over represented in the prison population.

I'm not convinced that the majority of them are trans but under the principle of self ID it's transphobic of me to say so.

I suspect that many are sexual predators appropriating a trans identity to use gender distress as a mitigating factor at their trials in the hope of a more lenient sentence or they hope to be housed in the female prison estate. One can only speculate why a sexual predator might find that option appealing.

The challenge for TRA's is how to argue that self ID poses no safeguarding risk and simultaneously disavow the people who prove it does because their actions are inconvenient to your cause.

Your absurd suggestion that the only valid stats would consider sex offenders per capita of the population assumes that every sex offender is detected and convicted or that sex offenders would willingly admit their crimes for the purposes of accurate data collection.

We ask these questions because these are the real life issues that 'our darlings' face in modern society.

If you cannot answer these questions with a definitive answer, why not?

Or. Here is another one.

Are you comfortable with a naked semi-erect penis on a male who is sliding into a spa bath within one metre directly in front of and at eye level to either a six or a nine year old girl who is also naked?

What steps do you think the spa owners should be able to take to prevent such a thing from happening, if you are uncomfortable with it?

Btw, despairing of people who think it is ok to force women, especially incarcerated women, to share facilities, incl a prison cell and showers, with any male person, however nice they are. Why would anyone force women into such a situation? Or do they love getting naked with male strangers you can't get away from so can't see the issue for others?

By the way, are you comfortable with a transitioned male who is a stranger to your daughter assisting your 5 year old daughter to get dressed and generally watching a group of 5 year olds get dressed?

Are you comfortable with a young girl being in a situation where they could be sleeping in a room/ tent with a male if appropriate procedures are not being followed on a girl guide camp? One that could walk into an open shower block without any questions to check on the girls in there?