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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just despair - HOW do some women just not get it!

284 replies

Mynewchairhasarmrests · 21/11/2022 09:24

Just finished a brilliant novel written by a female author about friendships, girlhoo, womanhood, and growing up as a girl. She was so absolutely on the money about what it’s like to be a young woman and the pressures of looking and acting a certain way, the awful way women are so often treated by men, the way women are portrayed in the media, how we are programmed not to recognise sexual assault and told its just boys having fun, and how we aren’t believed even if we do report it. Her anger and passion really came through and it was good, though depressing, to read someone telling it exactly like it is.

You know what’s coming. I then look on her social media. She’s a TRA. Signed a letter condemning JKR for being ‘anti trans’. Condemns Germaine Greer for being so wrong on trans issues.

I just don’t understand how these women can see the misogyny everywhere they look BUT the place where it’s in its worst, purest form - gender ideology.

Its like a glitch in the coding somewhere. Why can’t they see it? I have another friend who is on the board of a rape charity. We had long conversations about how shit it can be to be a woman. The misogyny everywhere. I was sure she must be GC. But no. A TRA. Doesn’t speak to me now she knows I’m a TERF.

I just don’t get it. Is it fear of societal disapproval? A reluctance to admit the liberal progressive cause they publicly embraced is anything but and that they’ve been had?

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 21/11/2022 17:39

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:33

Because it was all an attack. Why respond to a post that is 100% twisting of BS to justify ending with an insult?

So it's okay for you to say transphobic shit and when you're challenged to just ignore it (until you want to play wah wah I'm being attacked)? Maybe you should think more carefully about what you say and try not to say transphobic things if you don't want to be called out for transphobia. And if you weren't being transphobic, you had every opportunity to explain what you actually meant.

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:37

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:31

to be fair (to me), you have been saying things that aren't true

do you know and not care, or are you ill informed?

Oh, I feel the same way about others, so I guess it’s fair that I also disparaged someone. Good to know. You can all stop whinging about me behaving badly then as it’s perfectly fair if you think the other person is wrong.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 17:35

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 17:21

Ah.... Did you just glance at the date ranges and make that statement? Because that would be again misrepresenting the data that she uses.

Or did you go and look at the conclusions she has drawn and from the data?

Could you be specific in what you are referring to when you say "wildly different date ranges"?

How about you actually engage rather than attempt a breezy hand wave away.

For example: The statistics on the Fact sheet page are drawn from June 2021 data. Which ones are you disputing?

Are you disputing these FOI request answers?

www.sexsegregatedprisons.info/fois

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

Just so this doesn't get lost in the enormous amount of sparple on this thread at the moment.

Ofcourseshecan · 21/11/2022 17:34

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 09:43

I think this latest tweet from Andy Ngo captures the misogyny that can never be covered over. And the homophobia and racism in this particular person. And apparently wrapped in an ‘uncancellable’ package at that.

twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1594430891123564544?s=46&t=Nrk2T6H-NlJFtSx-XFAbuw

My god, that video is truly terrifying. The men climbing on barriers, screaming, brandishing their fists, trying to get past the police cordon to attack a group of women holding “Women’s lives matter” placards. And the “I know where youlive” threats.

It’s like a horror film. Only it’s reality.

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:33

beastlyslumber · 21/11/2022 17:31

That wasn't an attack. It was a question and a statement. Based on what you actually said, which I quoted for you and explained my comment further. I did ask you to clarify what you meant, but you declined to do so.

Because it was all an attack. Why respond to a post that is 100% twisting of BS to justify ending with an insult?

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 17:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sorry.... what have I 'never provided'?

Because, I just posted the figures received directly from the MoJ for 2021 figures.

What have you actually posted?

Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe the figures from directly from the Ministry of Justice that we can use as a basis for our claims that transitioned males do not commit sex crime in any way the numbers that females do.

And that even using raw data that had been hand collated by women's groups showed that.

Because the reality is, you haven't provided anything from what I can see on this thread.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:32

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:31

So it’s being attacked that makes me feel attacked- and you’re one of the ones using personal attacks.

I'm going to go and do something else

you did say you were going to - may I suggest that you do that?

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:31

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:30

discussing your beliefs seems to make you feel paranoid and attacked @Onnabugeisha

You also struggle to engage in any meaningful way with questions

So it’s being attacked that makes me feel attacked- and you’re one of the ones using personal attacks.

beastlyslumber · 21/11/2022 17:31

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:28

And this one too @beastlyslumber
beastlyslumber · Today 16:05
Because it sounds pretty fucking transphobic to me.

That wasn't an attack. It was a question and a statement. Based on what you actually said, which I quoted for you and explained my comment further. I did ask you to clarify what you meant, but you declined to do so.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:31

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:29

Another personal attack on me
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 16:20
Do you think this person knows they are saying things that aren’t true and doesn’t care?

to be fair (to me), you have been saying things that aren't true

do you know and not care, or are you ill informed?

NecessaryScene · 21/11/2022 17:30

y= all sex offenders in prison population (could be male or female or trans)

I've not checked what exactly the population they were looking at was, but I know it doesn't matter.

The total prison population is 95% male and not trans-identified, so whether or not the figure is male-only, or includes females and/or trans doesn't significantly affect anything. The difference between taking males only and taking all can't shift the 19% figure by more than one percentage point either way.

Total opposite of looking at the tiny female population (or indeed trans population) where not many people added could cause a huge shift. Which is why it's plausible that the 40% figure for "trans" could be the result of inflation from a relatively small number of "trans for prison purposes" sex offending men, rather than something inherent about the wider "trans" population.

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:30

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:26

Please stop quoting me when attempting to justify what I saw as your personal attack. I am not finding your extracts convincing though I accept that people will draw their own conclusions. Moreover though, I do not believe it is relevant. Your statement is judged on its own merit or unmerit. You feeling affronted by others does not give you carte blanche.

So you have carte blanche and I do not? Hypocrite.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:30

discussing your beliefs seems to make you feel paranoid and attacked @Onnabugeisha

You also struggle to engage in any meaningful way with questions

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:29

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:16

You need to take responsibility for your own actions. Call put others if you feel offended but don't use it as justification to behave badly.

Another personal attack on me
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 16:20
Do you think this person knows they are saying things that aren’t true and doesn’t care?

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:28

beastlyslumber · 21/11/2022 17:18

That's not a personal attack. It's not directed at anyone personally.

If you choose to take it personally, that's on you. Doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks on others.

And this one too @beastlyslumber
beastlyslumber · Today 16:05
Because it sounds pretty fucking transphobic to me.

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:27

beastlyslumber · 21/11/2022 17:18

That's not a personal attack. It's not directed at anyone personally.

If you choose to take it personally, that's on you. Doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks on others.

Your comment to me was as well
beastlyslumber · Today 16:00
Is this you being transphobic?

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:26

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:23

So was this
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 15:54
Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

Please stop quoting me when attempting to justify what I saw as your personal attack. I am not finding your extracts convincing though I accept that people will draw their own conclusions. Moreover though, I do not believe it is relevant. Your statement is judged on its own merit or unmerit. You feeling affronted by others does not give you carte blanche.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 17:26

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:00

🤷‍♀️ Why bother? It was deleted so there’s nothing to counter. but knock yourself out, I think your time would be better spent learning how to do stats myself as the issue with the figures on the sexsegregatedprisonsnow that you linked were blatantly obvious at first glance, which didn’t notice as you said you believed those figures.

Again.

Please post the stats you dispute.

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:26

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:10

This is an inappropriate personal attack. People are not inevitably playing games just because they disagree with you or find your views abhorrent.

And this
Scyla · Today 15:58
Fascinating how much effort Onnabugeisha is putting into trying to rubbish that data. As if we have all sat around looking at it for a year waiting for someone to explain it to us.

Allies that pop up here are without any doubt the most patronising people that post on Mumsnet.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/11/2022 17:25

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:23

So was this
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 15:54
Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

To be fair I lose my patience when people are being wilfully dishonest

others are more patient than me

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:25

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:10

This is an inappropriate personal attack. People are not inevitably playing games just because they disagree with you or find your views abhorrent.

And this
You sound transphobic @Onnabugeisha

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:23

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:23

So was this
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 15:54
Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

And this
hamstersarse · Today 16:05
Ironically, I always think it is the programming they have had to 'be nice'

It does seem terribly nasty not to be compassionate to someone when they seem in some sort of psychotic episode

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:23

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 17:10

This is an inappropriate personal attack. People are not inevitably playing games just because they disagree with you or find your views abhorrent.

So was this
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Today 15:54
Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 17:21

sanluca · 21/11/2022 15:31

The conclusion should be:

Only 10 out of 5 million female population are murderers, whereas 8500 out of the 4.8 million male population. Hence, having a uterus causes less homocidal tendencies.

Your mistake is comparing between wrong groups. Apples versus pears.

For trans people you should compare the percentage of transmen who are sexual offenders out of the female prison population, versus transwomen in the male prison population.

No idea if there are any transmen in prison for sexual offences though...

You got it! Yay, my example was an illustration of why the figures do not say what everyone is thinking they say. Their mistake is apples to pears. That’s why I wrote FALSE in front of conclusion.

Helleofabore · 21/11/2022 17:21

Onnabugeisha · 21/11/2022 16:19

Huh, she should know better than to have wildly different date ranges then as that’s a big nope for valid statistical comparisons.

And there is the garbage in, garbage out problem with the fact that MoJ isn’t entirely sure how many transgender prisoners they have. The BBC article said quite plainly:
”It says the figures "are not yet a reliable reflection of the numbers and location of trans prisoners in the prison estate". The MoJ can't count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender. Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).”

So if you don’t know how many prisoners are transgender, how can you say 80% of transgender inmates are male or that 99% of transgender sex offenders are male? You literally cannot calculate it with any reliability.

Ah.... Did you just glance at the date ranges and make that statement? Because that would be again misrepresenting the data that she uses.

Or did you go and look at the conclusions she has drawn and from the data?

Could you be specific in what you are referring to when you say "wildly different date ranges"?

How about you actually engage rather than attempt a breezy hand wave away.

For example: The statistics on the Fact sheet page are drawn from June 2021 data. Which ones are you disputing?

Are you disputing these FOI request answers?

www.sexsegregatedprisons.info/fois

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.