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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Alex Massie spells it out in the Times.

65 replies

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2022 21:32

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fc90146c-6813-11ed-bcd8-599592d95f22?shareToken=4aa8db330265c2db1083abbe9b53a6b5

Succint and clear.

'the Scottish government now believes a person may change their sex. Or, at any rate, it has argued in court that sex is no longer “immutable”. This is not true but, as so often in modern Scotland, reality must give way to fantasy.'

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 13:55

Also noting that I am using Dolatowski's male pronouns because he is a convicted sex offender and paedophile, and I will not call him a woman. I think Mumsnet rules allow us to correctly sex convicted sex offenders.

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 13:54

The Scottish Prison Service have decided that Dolatowski is at risk of his feelings being so hurt so badly that he is forced to punch younger men repeatedly in the head, so they say Dolatowski must be put into the women's prison, where he will be happier and therefore presumably - hopefully- less violent?

I'd love to see this risk assessment. How does the reasoning work?

Because women are likely to be even more at risk, of both violent attack, where the size and strength differential means Dolatowski will have the advantage, and of course of sexual assault, given that Dolatowski is a sex offender.

Why do the women in Cornton Vale not get any consideration of their feelings, safety, dignity or comfort?

I don't know, how can anyone say this is reasonable or logical or fair. It's fucking inhuman.

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 13:48

That's manmaths, nils!

Because the pain and suffering of the male who is not being affirmed and supported outweighs the pain and suffering of the female who has been assaulted.

Or even, if a transwomen fears assault from males in male prison, this is a reason to move they into the women's prison. The women who fear assault from the male who's moved in? Tough tits, I'm afraid.

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nilsmousehammer · 20/11/2022 13:44

It is a good point.

Let's consider the feelings, emotions, trauma, physical damage of a sexual assault on a female person. It can be lifechanging. The impact lifelong. White, a notorious rapist enabled via self ID to access several victims on several different occasions, left one of these women so badly injured from the multiple rapes committed on her that she may not be able to have children.

And we're saying that NONE of this, in the increasing number of victims, apparently equals on the scale the terrible emotional impact of a male person not getting exactly what they want?

Seriously?

A male being offered a TQ+ wing is as harmful as if they had been raped and left with lifelong physical and mental injury.

How is this not just male supremacism that values those born with penises (not assigned them) as always infinitely more than those without? And this is pushed alongside the demand that we repeat the lie 'sex isn't a thing, isn't binary, no one knows what sex anyone is'.

Yeah, we can tell what sex people are, and that it's binary. One group can't be traumatised by the word 'no'. The other group can be repeatedly traumatised, excluded and physically harmed and still hear nothing more than the word 'no'.

HopRockers · 20/11/2022 13:35

n + 1
always

ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 13:33

The other point when we're talking about even one predatory male is that there will usually be several victims. Dolatowski has assaulted two girls that we know of, and presumably upset women at the shelter, as well as staff.

How many victims does it take for people to decide that actually it does matter if a predatory man is enabled to access vulnerable women and/or children?

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/11/2022 13:32

'Ugh, you're taking one isolated incident and using it to demonize an entire minority. Bigot!'

Presumably they'd also argue for the scrapping of the PVG / DBS schemes...

EsmaCannonball · 20/11/2022 13:03

Aside from 'Ugh, you're such a meanie!' the TRA-hive response to JKR's retweet of the article appears to be, 'Ugh, you're taking one isolated incident and using it to demonize an entire minority. Bigot!'. This is the central trick, isn't it? Men are not a minority and male violence is not a rarity. By allowing men to create an artificial minority, which any of them can identify into, they are making recognition of the oldest form of power, male physical dominance over women, completely unsayable.

I was thinking of this in relation to Sam Bankman-Fried the other day, in that fraudsters always adapt to their particular times. Predators and conmen always take on the persona of those who are most respected, trusted and placed beyond scrutiny in the age that they are operating. Today's rip-off trader dresses like a skateboarder and talks about saving the planet. Today's predator knows the language of diversity and vulnerability, even if they are a hulking great-big white man.

nilsmousehammer · 20/11/2022 12:27

WolverineBlueyy · 20/11/2022 11:37

None so blind as those who will not see, and all that! There's someone telling her "you're breaking my heart with this garbage". As if JKR's reputation rests with the hard of thinking like this...

A strong belief that if someone's boundary makes you sad, they have no business having it. Because everyone else has responsibility for your feelings, and the whole world and everyone in it has nothing better to do than revolve around you.

nilsmousehammer · 20/11/2022 12:23

no doubt it will end up with lots of court cases trying to do us for fraudulent declarations.

The trouble is that legally, all this sauce for the goose but not for the gander stuff does not work when it hits a court room.

It's easy enough to have a male name on a gas bill. No one can define what T is, or what 'living as' actually means beyond the name: you can't apparently police appearance and we all keep saying 'woman' isn't a costume so 'man' isn't either, and besides I'm wearing mens departments trousers and sweater right now because the womens wear is all cut at mid chest with stupid sleeves and necklines at present. Men have long hair. It's fine for men to wear lipstick and carry handbags. Biology has nothing to do with it.

It's the gas bill and declaration? Fine. No problem. Sign me up for the master race please, it will be nice to be the one to make the rules and head pat the rest of the world instead of be a walking therapy resource. Is it a sincere declaration? In terms of 'do I want to be a 'woman' in this insane fuckwit world?' No. I sincerely fucking don't. At all. I have deeply held inner feelings.

WolverineBlueyy · 20/11/2022 11:37

BedTaker · 20/11/2022 10:53

The 'I used to look up to you, you are such a disappointment' brigade on that JKR have absolutely no idea how they are coming across writing stuff like that on that particular tweet, do they?!

None so blind as those who will not see, and all that! There's someone telling her "you're breaking my heart with this garbage". As if JKR's reputation rests with the hard of thinking like this...

Maybeandfive · 20/11/2022 11:00

Supporters of the Scottish government’s plans to make it easier for people to change their legal sex continue to insist there is no evidence reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) will make life easier for “bad actors”. Real-life examples of precisely this drawn from the real world are dismissed as mere anecdotes

This, this argument that real life examples of predatory men who identify as trans are just anecdotes, was made in exactly those terms by the Welsh Government in an Equality Impact Assessment. All the data is 'anecdote' and anyone using such 'anecdotes' is guilty of making an argument of 'predatory determinism'.

Women of Wales, this is here too.

BedTaker · 20/11/2022 10:53

The 'I used to look up to you, you are such a disappointment' brigade on that JKR have absolutely no idea how they are coming across writing stuff like that on that particular tweet, do they?!

Boiledbeetle · 20/11/2022 10:42

@nilsmousehammer I honestly think it may have to come to this. Who wants to remain in the subhuman scum class if by a quick, no hassle signature you can be of the master race with all their privileges and better rights?

exactly and no doubt it will end up with lots of court cases trying to do us for fraudulent declarations.

But is there any woman on this thread who hasn't at some point in their life whilst being unfairly treated purely due to the misfortune of having been born female thought "God! I wish I was a man".

Of course the Trans Rights Activists would be up in arms screaming "that's not fair, you can't say just because you feel like a man you are one!"

Unfortunately as they have insisted repeatedly that you are what you feel and that you can effortlessly slip began female and male with just a click of your heels, sorry I meant just removing said heels, and the fact that you aren't actually doing ANYTHING to prove you are now the opposite sex is all fine as it's purely how you feel they won't have a bloody leg to stand on.

nilsmousehammer · 20/11/2022 10:18

Boiledbeetle · 19/11/2022 22:33

Every single woman in Scotland on the first day the new rules come in should apply and change their sex to male. Then start using all the male single sex spaces. Leave the ladies single sex to the men who want to be validated and the women who act as their handmaidens.

I mean it won't have much impact but the stats should be fun . Suddenly 99% of Scotland would be male!

I honestly think it may have to come to this. Who wants to remain in the subhuman scum class if by a quick, no hassle signature you can be of the master race with all their privileges and better rights?

Not to mention, the males left in the male facilities will be the decent ones with respect for female boundaries and privacy.

If we reduce 'women' down to meaning beaurocratically 'males and their political enablers' that should successfully dump any lingering meaning out of the term and fuck things up to the point of a re think.

However if all the non consenting females have buggered off elsewhere out of the women's spaces, you know what will happen, don't you? Wherever they go, they will not be there long before the hammering at the door and sword/bloodied t shirt/barbed wire baseball bats start.

ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:06

For reference, re transwomen switching back to birth gender on release:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-prisoners-switch-gender-again-once-freed-from-womens-units-qjjsd0nlx

More in here:

academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:02

ShamedBySiri · 20/11/2022 08:50

Can someone remind me where female prisoners who identify as men are housed? My understanding is they don't get put in the male estate as it is too dangerous for them. Are they just left in the women's accommodation or is there a third/separate space? In which case the safest option for women housed with these predatory men would be to identify as men.

In Scotland, as far as I recall there is one female in the male estate.

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:02

EsmaCannonball · 20/11/2022 08:33

I've always argued that if men-only spaces were so terrible for men who identify as women then it's odd that so many of them decide the perfect time to come out is right when they are banged up in a men's prison. If I weren't such a cold-hearted harpy, and were more blindly trusting like that lovely, innocent Nicola Surgeon, I might suspect that they were just angling to get into a women's prison.

The report that many 'desist' from 'living as women' after their sentence is finished might also suggest such a thing. Were one of a horribly bitter, cynical and twisted mindbent. Of course, the deeply kindhearted Scottish Government are far more understanding and compassionate when it comes to sex offenders tormented by a sincere need to live among women.

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Treaclemine · 20/11/2022 09:28

What about - looking at that Californian report - designating a prison as a women's prison, to respect the rights of these self identified women, but only putting trans women there? If they are arguing that they are women, they couldn't complain, could they?

ShamedBySiri · 20/11/2022 08:50

Can someone remind me where female prisoners who identify as men are housed? My understanding is they don't get put in the male estate as it is too dangerous for them. Are they just left in the women's accommodation or is there a third/separate space? In which case the safest option for women housed with these predatory men would be to identify as men.

334bu · 20/11/2022 08:38

Thanks for share.

EsmaCannonball · 20/11/2022 08:33

I've always argued that if men-only spaces were so terrible for men who identify as women then it's odd that so many of them decide the perfect time to come out is right when they are banged up in a men's prison. If I weren't such a cold-hearted harpy, and were more blindly trusting like that lovely, innocent Nicola Surgeon, I might suspect that they were just angling to get into a women's prison.

Whereareyourshoes · 20/11/2022 07:27

Thank you for sharing.

‘Dolatowski’s story is precisely the kind of thing we are repeatedly told just will not happen. Supporters of the Scottish government’s plans to make it easier for people to change their legal sex continue to insist there is no evidence reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) will make life easier for “bad actors”. Real-life examples of precisely this drawn from the real world are dismissed as mere anecdotes’

It’s devastating how little our MSPs care about the safety of women and children. If real life examples don’t count as evidence, what would count?

FOJN · 20/11/2022 07:02

But it is shockingly, irresponsibly delusional to think that predatory males will not take advantage of any openings offered them. That is their entire modus operandi. Remarkably, a majority of the members of the Scottish parliament are precisely this naive.

It's a good article. Its written with a well deserved sneering contempt for the people who are so stupid they ignore the obvious or so spineless they will go along with it to avoid being called a transphobic. I have nothing but contempt for every last one of them. I don't usually refer to people as stupid but I cannot find any other plausible explanation for this insanity.

Does anyone know if the primogeniture clause will remain in Scotland's reformed GRA? I suspect it will. It's important to make sure a law covers unlikely eventualities whilst opening the door to sexual predators.

NancyDrawed · 20/11/2022 06:23

ResisterRex · 19/11/2022 23:29

And the second response tweet by 'JK Trolling':

Here we go. Non stop

Because OF COURSE the problem isn't Dolatowski, his crimes and the situation that allows him to be in a women's prison. The REAL issue is the sunlight that JKR/Alex Massie are directing on him and it.

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