Stephen Fry

And women want the rights and dignities they demand.

Demand.

Apart from anything else, women taking their clothes off in front of random men is bloody dangerous for women. Vulnerable women being incarcerated with rapists is dangerous, and inhumane. Women being forced into contact sport with men is bloody dangerous.

Framing women's objections to this as demands is a disgraceful display of sexism.

Who exactly does he think is making these requirements necessary??

Honestly, I've had it with these men and their utter blindness.

This.

It's interesting that SF uses the word women to distinguish us from trans people. It accidentally reveals that SF like everyone else knows exactly what women are and uses the word women with the shared assumption we all know it means biological females.

Yes, indeed.

and to consider that is possible for trans people to live full, accepted lives according to their terms in society, and for women to have all the rights and dignities they demand.

It's interesting that SF uses the word women to distinguish us from trans people. It accidentally reveals that SF like everyone else knows exactly what women are and uses the word women with the shared assumption we all know it means biological females.

There's always the reveal within the lie that everyone knows exactly what a woman is really.

How transphobic of SF.

yes YES!

It's a perfect description of him

I once saw Stephen Fry described as "a stupid person's idea of an intelligent man", and I couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, I think what he means by this is he finds it uncomfortable when women point out the nitty gritty details of biological sex, the effects it has on women and males, the existence of bad actors (no pun intended) with unsavoury intent, and exactly why women don't want males in their spaces.

I think of the male shouting 'I'mma beat your ass' while fondling their chest, the person in the rubber duck face pouring urine over themself, and Jordan Grey playing the piano with their penis, and I think that women are not actually the ones undermining anyone's dignity, here.

Why do men find it so hard to grasp that women don't want to undress in front of random men?

that should be +what ?

• what ?

Fry was asked whether he would want to take part in the debate.

He said: “I wouldn’t. I definitely wouldn’t because I am aware that you are talking about an issue where two sides are very sore and anxious about their enemies.”

Framing people with different views as 'enemies' is a large part of the problem.

and to consider that is possible for trans people to live full, accepted lives according to their terms in society, and for women to have all the rights and dignities they demand.

It's really not, Stephen. We can't just allow males to have everything 'according to their terms' when their terms are based on the removal of women's rights. I mean, some people clearly think that's fine, and that a man's desires should override those of a woman. I don't agree.

If it 'undermines the dignity' of TQ+ identified people to say that female people exist and no male person is one, and that because of that females must have the equality of access, dignity and privacy of female only spaces for those who need them?

Then they're just going to have to have their dignity undermined I'm afraid. They cannot expect to be happy at the expense of removing other people's dignity, privacy and happiness while failing to give a shit. When male people manage to find a fuck to give about females and the capacity to see them as people instead of service units this whole mess might get somewhere. I include highly misogynist gay blokes with no skin in the game in this.

'calm down, dear'.

The dignity argument is not a helpful one to make. TW want into women's spaces, women want them to remain spaces for actual women (not sure if there is an inoffensive term to use to describe actual women now that India Willoughby believes India is a biological female).

It makes no more sense to say women are undermining TW dignity than it does to say that TW are undermining women's dignity. Their arguments are equivalent.

The fact that Stephen perpetuates the myth that women are doing something to TW which is not being done to them is problematic. The question is what do women, who are the ones with skin in this game - the ONLY ones with skin in this game want. Men have no right to berate women about how they feel when their spaces are taken away.

a weary lol as another man comes along to say ‘im sure it would be fine if women would just be reasonable’ as if it were us that had started #nodebate, us trying to force ourselves into spaces we don’t belong, us Sending death threats & Sevding screaming mobs to meetings to shut trans ppl up

Yes that was grim. Men are sexually superior because they'll shag anyone anywhere, or something.

TRAs are so upset by Fry's remarks, I assumed he'd come out as full GC, but apparently not.

It's not complicated.

The demands of transwomen clash on every level with the rights of women. That's what happens when you want to pretend sex doesn't exist.

The conflict is the issue. Can women retain their single sex spaces, or not. That's the issue. It's an either/or.

And if he thinks it might depend on what the space is, well, we've had that conversation a zillion times. You're not allowed to specify or offer alternative provision. It's all or nothing.

I can be as calm and polite as the most calm and polite person in the world. It doesn't change the issue.

As Graham Norton demonstrated, this is a risky topic to weigh in on trying to be the 'voice of reason' in the middle. Because the voice of reason is already represented.

I'm interested in all these 'intersex' friends he claims to have. Don't they object to him using outdated and unhelpful terminology?

This is Stephen Fry who lectured straight women on their sex lives right????

I shall carry on undermining the dignity of the trans 'community' while it thinks it ok to have a man running a rape crisis centre, men pretending to be women in women's prisons, telling lesbians they need to get with 'girldick', and stealing women's sports trophies.

undermine the dignity and rights of the trans community

He needs to say what exactly is being done to undermine the rights and dignity of men who are transwomen.

I think he has superficially got to know the issues.

I think he has a reputation for seeing facts rather than ideology and therefore knows it would undermine he credibility to say people can change sex.

Well that's a dilemma

We can't avoid undermining the dignity of either women or transpeople if they insist TWAW