Is it okay to work with groups whose principles you dont share as a feminist, but there is a common cause?

Ah. So you are smearing these groups with the accusation of being "far right".

Receipts, please.

And the consequences are real. There is real conservative traction moving in the US. Abortion rights are being stripped away. Female prominent politicians are advocating the evangelical Christian view of women being fragile, inferior beings. In 2022. It can't be ignored.

I guess I am extremely uncomfortable with the fact that the trans debate has caused more radical feminists to sit a lot more comfortably next to conservative politics as their voices are more accepted there.

I find it concerning because the very people who support you most in your fight against trans ideology are the very people who would advocate for a very "Handmaid's Tale"-esque future if they could.

It's playing with fire and I stand by my reservations and condemnation of it. MN is probably not the best place to express this as it leans towards an older, more MC and conservative demographic anyway. But it just doesn't sit right with me at all, alarm bells are ringing.

www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/02/07/radical-feminists-conservatives-transgender-rights/

bylinetimes.com/2021/09/30/the-far-right-co-option-of-the-transgender-rights-issue/

www.politico.com/newsletters/the-recast/2022/03/08/politics-transgender-health-care-feminists-religious-conservatives-00015307

I am concerned about this "alliance" and its wider implications on the future of feminism. It's bigger than individual beliefs.

Also, posters scoff at beliefs being "infectious" but peoples political ideology and social outlook absolutely can be changed and influenced? It's not really something to joke about to be honest.

Yes, you're right. So one of the five sponsors is anti-abortion, but the other four aren't as far as I can tell.

Anti abortion beliefs? How is there a crossover? I am pro abortion. Me reading about The Christian Institute is not going to magically make me anti abortion. Talking to members is ditto.

You think beliefs are somehow infectious? We use reason, rationality and evidence. Critical thinking. We assess beliefs and decide if we wish to adopt them or not. Bar brainwashing, but I actually think listening to a wide as variety of beliefs as possible is probably more likely to guard against brainwashing than somehow trying to seal oneself off from the existence of competing beliefs.

there is emerging a cross over of conservative beliefs which are antithetical to feminism

How do you mean? Which beliefs?

Thanks for expressing that better than I could, Beastly.

The Christian Institute? Possibly, although I can't see anything obvious on their website. I'm sure you can provide some links if this is their view.

This group belief in the ... I forget the phrasing, sanctity of life from conception, or similar. So they're anti abortion. I put a post upthread that gives more info on all the sponsors, this was in there, I think.

Well I do believe that. Just by reading these threads over the years I do believe that there is emerging a cross over of conservative beliefs which are antithetical to feminism into feminism itself, with the centre of this crossover being the trans debate.

You can disagree of course, I don't know you as an individual. But yes personally I do maintain the belief that feminists willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with people the groups attending and organising this event is evidence of that belief.

And while as you as an individual don't believe that, I also don't believe you can automatically write off my assertions as untrue.

Whether people see that as bashing them or condemning them, I can't change the fact that that is what I believe based on what I have seen.

Which of these groups advocates for pro-life or anti-same sex marriage?

For Women Scotland? No
The Battle of Ideas? I don't think so
Academics for Academic Freedom? Unlikely
Stand by Me? This is a group focused on the wellbeing of children
The Christian Institute? Possibly, although I can't see anything obvious on their website. I'm sure you can provide some links if this is their view.

Indeed. My problem is that you spent much of this thread condemning women for taking part, accusing them of aligning with antifeminist beliefs and supporting the ideas of the events' sponsors by virtue of attending the event.

It's your assertion that these groups hold certain positions on certain topics. And you assert that these positions are somehow dangerous or antithetical to feminist principles. Yet there's no reason to assume any of that is the case.

Moreover, the event is on a specific topic which the speakers are each qualified to talk about. They are not there to promote their other political or ideological beliefs but to talk about a topic of shared interest.

It's your right to not attend. My argument with you is over your assertion that it would be wrong for others to attend. Antifeminist and immoral, as you put it.

Speech doesn't destroy people, MyLovelyPen. Acts of violence (such as those so lovingly depicted by transactivists against women) destroy people. Forcing people out of their jobs and their livelihoods can destroy lives. Encouraging young people into a lifetime of harmful surgery and wrong-sex drugs could destroy their lives.

Speech may offend people. Telling them facts that they do not want to believe may offend them. But as George Orwell said, if liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

But how can directly antifeminist beliefs be considered irrelevant?

You may be able to compartmentalise that, but I definitely could not separate out the fact that my peers at an event were advocating for pro life or anti same sex marriage rhetoric.

As much as these personal choices are valid, my disagreement is equally valid as that is my personal choice as you said. So why do you feel the need to constantly convince me that actually it's all fine, these events? You feel they are. I don't!

@beastlyslumber yes sure. I was answering in a personal capacity. But that attitude towards personal affairs will colour how I would feel generally about groups talking cross party as it were. The principle remains - see people as people first and foremost. Everyone has a story behind the views they hold. It is the old "walk a mile in someone's shoes before you judge them harshly" principle. I use it in life a lot.

I feel it's hypocritical to say you would work with these groups on something as relatively trivial as a cat sanctuary, while condemning women discussing with these groups the topic of education.

Maybe hypocritical is the wrong word. Confusing. Doesn't seem to follow any logic that I can see.

Absolutely. FWIW, I think Ben Shapiro is a pathetic ass hat and the fact he had the gall to say that to his long time friend and supporter was just another mark on the long list of reasons why he is a pathetic ass hat.

How do you know these people's beliefs about education conflict with yours if you are not willing to attend the event and find out what their views are? Or have you already read about their beliefs about education?

Can you be more specific? What beliefs about education do they hold which conflict with yours?

And is it the beliefs of For Women Scotland that you disagree with? Or the Christian Institute? Or Frank Furedi?

Here's the full list of speakers.

Professor Frank Furedi, Sociologist and author, books include Paranoid Parenting and Wasted: Why Education Isn't Educating

Catriona Taylor, Retired Headmistress, Edinburgh, Leave Our Kids Alone Campaign

Marion Calder, For Women Scotland

Ciaran Kelly, The Christian Institute

Dr Jenny Cunningham, Retired Community Paediatrician

Alka Sehgal Cuthbert Don’t Divide Us

Richard Lucas, The Family Party

Stuart Waiton, Sociologist and journalist

Stuart Baird, Secondary School Teacher

It’s your personal choice. I wouldn’t go to like one of those mass Moonie weddings or something else where I was scared my friend was being drawn into a cult. But I would show up and and share a joyful occasion with anyone of any denomination if it didn’t give me the heebie-jeebies.

I don’t think there are many occasions where I have needed to enter a place of worship though. So it is not an issue for me. Also, in my experience, people are pretty quiet about their religious views, so there isn’t that cause for me to have a discussion about it. I think it’s best to let other people get on with their own religion and attend their own church and not stress about where their beliefs might differ from mine.

I think it's fine for you, Ben Shapiro, me, anyone to make decisions about their personal life. It's valid, even if you would make a different decision.

It's also completely different to saying women shouldn't collaborate with any groups that don't hold certain opinions, even if those opinions are irrelevant to the proposed collaboration.

I thought it was nuance and not judging someone solely by their views and respecting other beliefs?

Agreed. So if I collaborate on, say, a campaign to fund fistula surgeries, with a Catholic who's pro-life and doesn't believe in gay marriage, that's okay with you?

Do you mean that question? I answered it, I just used my own fictional example instead of your one. The context of the event matters is all I'm saying.

Would I go to a pro lifer's fund raising afternoon tea to raise surgery funds for their dog's knee replacement? Yes. Would I go to a pro lifer's afternoon tea to organise picketing at an abortion clinic the following week? Of course not.

The context matters, I don't know what else to say at this point?

Why can't you let go that I see things different from you?

In the real life example of the OP, no I wouldn't go to that event because it's clear as day to me that those are all conservative view points I don't agree with. So even if one theoretically overlaps with a feminist view I may share, I know that the attitudes, and reasons for reaching that shared view point, are completely different to my own. Those completely different motivations absolutely matter.

It's not a debate. I'm not interested in attending as I would not be gaining anything. I wouldn't want to (bringing it back to the OP again) "work" with people who had reached the conclusion of being against self ID for transphobic rather than feminist reasons.

Okay so you would share a platform with an anti gay marriage Christian if it was to raise money for a cat sanctuary. But not to discuss issues in education.

I feel that's a bit hypocritical tbh.

@Dreamwhisper Is it only okay to do that in the name of conservative values then, and not progressive ones?

I think that is a really interesting and valid question to ask. My own answer would be, no it isn't valid in either case. A friend is a friend, you go to his damn wedding. Sometimes, a friend might ask you to do something uncomfortable. You do it cos they are your friend. I am a vegan. I have many many friends with whom I could find offence. I choose not to. I choose the friendship. One day they may see my point of view. I understand that at present they do not. I still see the humanity in them first and foremost.

What about this event, though? Since this is the one we've been discussing. Or even just answer the question I asked you.