'Misgendering' cannot be discussed?

Is it worth appealing to MN about the deletion? It seems utterly unjustified - just the whim of one of the mods. Surely there needs to be a decent reason to delete threads. It can't just be because a mod didn't like it.

Meandering = misgendering

Interesting replies about motivation and it seems like this is some.form of fetish. To my mind if a man wants to dress in hot pants he can and there is a perfectly accurate term 'transvestite ' to describe this. What can't be denied is that a man is still a man and therefore bound to the same societal norms that apply to both sexes when it comes to personal safety and dignity. (Those rules are there for very good reasons).

the thing I find Orwellian about meandering is that you are compelled to enrole in some one else's fantasy i.e. forcing others to effectively not state an accepted biological truth which is tantamount to forced deception.

I think what is missing from the OPs experience is any intention to hurt. The 'misgnedering' was used not to insult or humiliate; the pronoun was used in a fashion that has been used for millennia and loois possibly an in terms of response of response to visual clues. How can that be subject to disciplinary action????

'Misgendering' could also have used in some circumstances of ensuring that the sex of the individual is known (for instance toilet use) where safety and dignity are concerned. There is also an individuals medical safety when it comes to medical records to consider.

I remember there being debate about whether health professionals should ask all patients of they were pregnant. The conclusion in my local health community was that should a strategy would be greeted with mockery and reduce trust in the competence of health care professionals. Are those health professionals misgendering by assuming beard bloke is a man by not asking his pregnancy status given pregnancy is a major characteristic of women? Does a trans male.take offence by being asked about pregnancy before a medical infervention?

the concept of misgndering falls apart at a logical level fairly easily as scientific truth and the use of language by populations are insurmountable barriers. In addition this is not about being unkind, it is about truth. I have not seen one post here that alludes to anything hateful about any portion about any portion of the population. I have seen posts that wish to protect women's rights which have been hard win over the last couple of centuries.

Returning to the problem of threads getting deleted, is there mileage in reporting the people derailing and picking a fight?
Like, the ones on here for example?

So frustrating. A few short years ago if someone said 'I identify as ...' or 'I am ...' and what followed was obviously not in accordance with the facts, everyone knew, and could conclude that the person was either a liar or mentally ill. Nobody was forced to pretend to agree. How did we get here? What next? When will reality and common sense prevail again?

Thank you for this. I've done some more reading and it's even harder for the romance languages as the verbs are feminine or masculine! I wonder how they navigate it.

I read that thread earlier and it was definitely helping me. The last thing we need are TRA Mumsnet mods

Also, given how easy it is to 'misgender' do we really think normal people will be going around reporting others - in McCarthyist fashion - for misgendering? I don't think it's likely.

Here's a music school encouraging people to use a QR code in order to report those even suspected of not believing in gender ideology. You don't have to have done anything, just wrongthink.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4674757-music-college-accused-of-transphobia-over-qr-code-witch-hunt?reply=121473736

I know three 'trans: people, two I see regularly. I accidentally 'misgender' them all the fucking time, to their faces too when in a group (and I am trying not to!). I really am trying not to too, they're nice people and I decided that I would do it rather than lose the friendships. I just can't manage it! Unless I'm actively and constantly put it at the front of my mind, which is impossible in the context I know them because someone could get seriously injured or worse if my mind wasn't on the task in hand. I knew the woman long before she changed her name and started insisting on they/them and I deadname her too, all the time. I do have ADHD so I wonder if that's a factor in not managing it, but overriding the code in my brain is HARD! Luckily they're not twats about it.

Excellent post @Delphinium20 you have explained linguistically what I was feeling instinctively.

It's not the same as changing name.

Pronouns are universal, and normal usage is sex-based. We are trained, from a young age, to use pronouns in this way. The mental load of changing that for one or two people is enormous. And very discriminatory, and I think could be seen as harassment if enforced, against anyone who is non neurotypical, disabled, or a non-native English speaker (or a child, who might be struggling to learn grammar rules in the first place).

Maybe as a society we'll eventually move towards non sex based neutral pronouns for everyone - 'they'. I believe some safeguarding will be lost this way, but still, maybe it'll happen. But individual pronouns for each individual person? Impossible. The mental load is too high and at that point you might as well use the person's name instead.

In the workplace, if every individual person had a different pronoun sending emails would soon a) take about 10 times as long and b) hugely affect productivity.

Also, given how easy it is to 'misgender' do we really think normal people will be going around reporting others - in McCarthyist fashion - for misgendering? I don't think it's likely.

They?

I’ve become very aware of how I instinctively notice if someone is male or female.

Indeed. I was at a comedy open mic the other day. A comic with a woman's name was announced. Good, I thought, a woman after all these men talking about their dicks (that's a whole other thread).

As soon as they walked on stage, mostly with their back to me as they greeted the MC, I clocked, Oooo probably a man. Then they pretty much said upfront "I'm trans. We'll get to that." I thought, bingo. We can tell ...

Actually they were the best act of the night, bar the MC, but insisted on speaking of themselves as a woman (not transwoman), and lumping themselves in with actual women. Kind of took the edge of fun off it for me, although they were very good.

OP. I don't blame you for the fear. Pronouns, like articles, are grammar tools we use subconsciously. Unlike proper nouns which our brains learn more through memorization and association, pronouns and articles (an, a, the) are subconscious function words and much more difficult to make exceptions for some uses but not others. It will always be an effort for our brains to make an exception like "they" for a known person or "she" for a known man. It slows down our brain processing and will never be seamless unless that rule is changed for everyone (e.g. "they/them" is used for every known person in the singular and stops being a plural word). While language is always evolving, our brains cannot recognize grammar function rule changes that are exceptions for some people.

I really wish the kids would have talked to a linguist, an editor or an English professor before coming up with the pronoun dictates. It's an unattainable goal, but then so is a sex change.

People asking who will be the father. When your pregnant

I definitely believe this may be a motivation for some. Like there's a person who has a full beard and shaved head. They go round the shopping centre in tiny hot pants barely covering their bum cheeks. They aren't shopping they never buy anything and I've seen them a few times. They seem to love getting a reaction it's like flashing behaviour. Also many MTF wear massive amounts of makeup and tiny skimpy clothes more so than biological females.

I'm the OP absolutely gutted I missed the thread. I was sleeping after a long shift. I'm now pondering how our brains work. My brain makes a quick assessment based on their appearance and name. Our language uses pronouns. I haven't encountered this in real life until today and it's actually very difficult to retrain what seems to be a subconscious response.
I will certainly try as I don't want to get fired.

MN is a privately owned forum and they can delete threads as they see fit (and their rules, that we all agreed to when we signed up, support this).

You don't get to decide how the site is run. The gall of some posters, seriously.

lennolin,

Maybe ask your question on a race forum? Race has no place in discussions on sex as a "what if" or "gotcha".

There are only two sexes. No more, no less. Two distinct sexes.

We're here discussing sex. And whether people should be forced to refer to obvious men as women, and address them as "she/her". Even when he is not present.

Lots of us are saying no; we see a man, our natural use of language is to say "he/him". Why are we being cancelled for discussing in good faith?

I think the fear over getting it wrong is creating so much tension. I referred to a child as black today and my son straight away said I was racist. I wasn't being but shows kids are so aware and don't want to be racist but is creating a divide as they don't know what to say that's acceptable anymore.

I was also quite surprised that the thread got deleted. I wanted to know how to handle this in the future as DS has always had trouble with pronouns anyway (delayed language), and basically I don’t want him made to feel bad or punished at school or work, and also concerned about safeguarding.

@ToGanymedeAndTitan
Would you care to address my point about your racism and xenophobia in expecting me, as a non-native English speaker, to apply your English rules Stonewall rules, to the grammar and basic of my own native language, please?

@ToGanymedeAndTitan yet you derailed the thread, bringing in a poor analogy of racism.