Munroe Bergdorf has a Glamour Woman of the Year award

Maybe Munroe's plastic surgeon should get the award.

Or it should be renamed: Best performance of femininity, judged by patriarchal standards.

A cesspit, eh?

Did I miss your acknowledgement of the homophobic and misogynistic things Bergdorf has said? And of the dismissal of safeguarding practices?

Have you acknowledged that Bergdorf may have crossed the line numerous times and NOT be a role model to be awarded a ‘game changer’ award for any sex.

Vlad I agree in the main with what you, and MB, say about racism. I do think white culture and history is drenched in it and not acknowledging it is harmful and just leads to more generations of it. And yes MN has that in oodles.

What I can't square is MB then colonising womanhood, doing utterly male things to belittle and steal from women and not see that men are drenched in sexism. And identifying out of it is no more possible than what Rachel Dolezal did. It is such a massive cognitive mismatch.

Vladimir, how can you say Munro is a beautiful woman (due to plastic surgery) based on their visual appearance but simultaneously deny that they are visually less black looking. The two photographs on this thread show this change very clearly the latter one being an earlier photo. You claim to be impressed by Munro's words, but actions speak louder.

But alas, this thread was not intended to be about Munroe's race

So why did you bring it up then?!

Let me get this straight:

Bergdorf has expressed one view once about race, and that expunged all else Bergdorf has done and therefore should be celebrated with a prize for women?

As stated, these are my reasons why this person is not a role model:

• made homophobic comments
• made racist comments
• lauded a "child drag artist" about whom it was known had been pictured with naked adult men
• encouraged children to make contact via DM
• been dropped by or had to leave the NSPCC, Childline, Labour, and L'Oreal

Without evidence to refute these points, those concerns remain.

That comment was to @ResisterRex but the same applies.

Yes when it comes to racism absolutely yes. A huge element of why things are the way they are is because in the UK at least any discussion about it is prefaced with 'Does racism exist?' - You'd be lucky to get the word 'still' in there. There's nowhere to really argue from there because the premise renders it a 'both sides' argument. I can't imagine someone asking in 2022 on BBC Politics when discussing something like the cost of childcare 'Are women still paying the price for having children?' Because it would be ridiculous. But alas, this thread was not intended to be about Munroe's race. So feel free to continue calling her a man as you wish within the talk guidelines, of course.

It's like going on a vegan forum and extolling the virtues of a bacon sandwich

So trolling then? You came on the sex and gender forum and told us you’re a huge fan of a male who claims to be a woman even though this male is a proven liar, homophobe and misogynist, someone who has no regard for safeguarding, but once said something about race you’ve taken to be true despite their track record of blatantly speaking falsehoods.

This isn’t a thread about race, it’s about a male winning an award for women. Can you explain how Bergdorf’s views on race mean that Bergdorf deserves a prize for women? It was you that brought up this as one of Bergdorf’s virtues, so presumably it’s relevant.

Ah, #nodebate. Got it

I don't need to win any arguments. I have said a million times before elsewhere on this forum that I really no longer want to talk about race on this site. It's like going on a vegan forum and extolling the virtues of a bacon sandwich. 'Race' isn't to me something that requires 'debate' - that's not the way I view it. I had said a few times upthread my views on biology and my specific comments on Munroe. But it really doesn't matter.

But people don't like that because it means their usual tactics for winning arguments (lying, ad hominems, strawmanning, derailing etc) don't work here.

FWR is not a cesspit. It's somewhere where evidence is put forward, debated and tested.

I really do see why posters moan about threads from this topic coming up on Active. It's a cesspit.

From the photo it looks like Munro has had surgery to look more white (or possibly east asian) as well as more feminine. Not THAT proud of their black heritage it would appear.

To summarise. Bergdorf has:

• made homophobic comments
• made racist comments
• lauded a "child drag artist" about whom it was known had been pictured with naked adult men
• encouraged children to make contact via DM
• been dropped by or had to leave the NSPCC, Childline, Labour, and L'Oreal

And in response to all this evidence as to why such a person should not be held up as any kind of role model, we get ramblings with no evidence, and which ends with a lust for high end luxury goods/fashion?

Well it seems you do, if calling a male a "he" gets posts deleted

Yes! 👏👏👏

Oh ffs

You're American, Vladimir? Munroe's British.

@ResisterRex To me no it doesn't but I knew when those words were uttered the show was absolutely over. Thing is when you live in a country which was built on the slave labour of your ancestors, when your country of origin was enslaved and your ancestors were subjugated and treated as subhuman it does have affect on you. When people naively or oftentimes conveniently think racism is of a bygone era but for some odd reason people who look like you are more likely to end up dead during childbirth, arrested/harassed by authorities or when you go for countless interviews and are told you are lovely but 'wouldn't be a good fit' it does make you wonder. Even small things like when your friends want to plan a weekend getaway but then you remember the destination would render you in a very awkward position where you'd be the 'only black' in the whole village thus the holiday would be less relaxing and more anxiety inducing. The thing is even at work when they do their D&I initiatives in October I tend to just smile and nod because offering up my opinion would render me jobless and I have quite a penchant for Chanel And that small matter of having young black nieces who from a scarily early age hated their blackness and wanted to be more like 'the blonde barbie' because in their eyes nothing about them was regarded as pretty.

I answered that it depends on your worldview. Her experiences of being mixed race resonate with my own of being mixed race. Not every mixed race person will have the same view or experiences of it.

So because your worldview is to be interested in race you don’t worry about truth, as long as it resonates?

I don't doubt many people make stuff up about the various parts of their identity to push another agenda but what she said about being mixed race - in one particular interview (granted I haven't seen everything she's ever said about race), resonated with me.

Again, Bergdorf has made up something pretty fundamental about themselves. Doesn’t that set off alarm bells? But because it resonated with you, you don’t have any alarm bells?

I do find myself interrogating a lot of what people say about the mixed experience

But you don’t feel the need with Bergdorf. Why? What was so convincing about how Bergdorf told this part of their lives that is any different to how Bergdorf emphatically tells us Bergdorf is a woman?

I would sound rather bigoted telling someone who explains their experiences of racism that it didn't really happen because it never happened to me or that there is no scientific paper that quantifies their experience.

So even though Bergdorf emphatically tells us something that can be objectively shown to be not true - that Bergdorf is a woman - it’s perfectly reasonable to believe something Bergdorf tells us that is completely subjective?

That makes no sense to me. If someone so blatantly defies objective reality then any subjective reality they describe would be instantly less believable. If someone concurs with objective reality I’m much more inclined to believe their descriptions of other aspects of their existence.

Vladamir perhaps you missed it but I posted upthread about Bergdorf and race, who was dropped by L'Oreal and then "stepped down" from a Labour post.

Does it sound bigoted to say that:

white people’s "entire existence is drenched in racism".

?

Here's the source:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/controversial-race-row-model-munroe-bergdorf-resigns-as-lgbt-advisor-to-labour

Fucking THIS!!!

All those influencers who go on about how terrible it is that young women feel such pressure to look like flawless bow up dolls, are the exact same people who cheer on Munroe and celebrate Munroe winning women's 'beauty' awards.

It's fucked up hypocrisy.