Dylan Mulvaney vs Micheal Jackson

Is the degree of harm to others measured by the harm done to the victim, or the intent and deliberation of the harmer?

MJ may have sincerely felt and believed that he was/identified as another child and therefore was innocently playing and/or experimenting as a young teen would with their first loves. To him it may have honestly felt something beautiful and wonderful and sincere. But the reality was that he was an adult man with all the power and wider awareness of an adult man, engaging with a naive and star struck child. That inevitably shades into grooming behaviour, and how far that went is irrelevant, no one knows the truth of it. But he did use that position and power to use young boys to meet his own needs.

Does it matter how sincerely a male person identifies as a woman when they are using women and children to meet their own needs? The bottom line of it that they are not in fact what they envisage themselves as, and that using their position of greater power to use others as tools to meet own needs is ethically and morally very wrong. As with MJ: we have no way of measuring how cynically or intentionally or innocently a male person may be doing it.

Regardless of his personal life, Michael was a talented singer, dancer, choreographer and entertainer.

What has Dylan got to offer other than prancing around in a demented fashion in an obscene caricature of a female?

Michael often appeared as being vulnerable and a frightened individual wanting to hide.

Dylan appears as a cocksure flamboyant seeking attention at all times.

Mulveney is simply a chancing, bullshitting misogynist who hit the big time on social media claiming 'girlhood' status. After years as a stand up comedian Mulveney's blend of Glee club meets Rocky Horror Show finally landed as TWAW became the latest road to sanctity. The guys a performance.

“That’s ignorant” - Michael Jackson’s catchphrase on South Park.

Wonder when South Park will “do” Mulvaney and/or Marsh?

did you see this?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4785548-dylan-mulvaney-created-in-a-boardroom

Absolutely huge difference between the two, imo.
I think MJ was very badly abused and robbed of a childhood, which left him with severe mental problems and emotionally stunted, that caused him to seek some sort of sanctuary with children - people on his own level emotionally.
I personally never believed that he hurt/interfered with kids but was a great blackmail mark and how can you prove you're innocent of those sorts of accusations? You just can't, that's the sort of mud that sticks, in great big clemmies at that.
I seem to remember, if memory serves, that the listener, watcher and psychologist, thought he was innocent of those accusations too but that he was definitely developmentally arrested emotionally.

DM, on the other hand knows exactly what he is doing imo.

I don't really see the two as very similar. They both come off as somewhat feminine men - what people used to call effeminate, but that's really about it, from my POV.

I see Dylan as a complete grifter, a tint talent but really nothing more, someone desperate to be in the limelight.

Jackson on the other hand was thrust into his career with really no say in it, and I'm not sure he ever really enjoyed fame as such. He was also a huge musical talent and probably didn't want to stop being a creator.

I don't think he was weird just to attract kids, I think he really was weird and had no idea how to be normal. And I don't have any reason to think Dylan is an abuser so much as a narcissist who doesn't care what effect he has on others.

This is the best comment on MN, ever. I doff my cap.

Question is, why has he had overnight success on Tik Tok? I'm suspicious of who's behind promoting him.

He was on a game show and his behaviour then was no different to now, so I’m not sure how he’s more like a ‘girl’ now.
Hes an out of work, fame hungry young man.

Safer to take seriously that he tried to get in with the little girls at Disney land. I don't what that was all about but better safe than sorry.

The first time I saw DM I felt mildly unkind as he was very smiley in the video I saw and seemed harmless, if deluded. I now find him hugely offensive.

I have recently seen something where he says that he has had to come out a third time to his parents - first was as gay, then trans and now as a straight woman. So although I have no idea if there is any trauma in DM's past, it would appear that his relationship with his parents is okay.

I'm mildly disappointed that this thread got to 20-odd posts with anyone making the obvious/old gag that one thing Mulvaney & Jackson definitely do have in common is he/he(e) pronouns 😶

I made this point on another thread that even if it’s some form of deep satire, I still think it’s incredibly offensive. No man of integrity could continue to play such an offensive role to make a point, it would all be too much.

Dylan opts into all the things that create horrific stereotypes of young girls. The thousands of likes and the public profile and access he gets baffle me.

He's a grifter, pure and simple.

He doesn't come across as gay to me. Not at all.

I think Dylan is part of an increasing trend - being a woman is a life style choice. It's not about 'feeling like you're in the wrong body' or trauma or anything, it's a way of life: style of dress, a way of behaving, deliberately provoking women, seeing hormones almost as pills to be taken like vitamin supplements. He might as well have done day one of being a vegan or day one of the 5k challenge. It's purely amusement and attention for him.

I don't believe there is anything vulnerable about Dylan. I think Dylan is really quite unpleasant behind all the sweetness and smiles.

Oh I agree. @RoyalCorgi i agree with you too. I should have been more clear- I meant that Michael’s infantile behaviour was at the very least in part due to trauma etc, and until his sex crimes were alleged, most people understood that that was why. The events following obviously complicated things and pointed to your explanation, corgi.

Dylan has made no mention of any sort of traumatic background regarding trauma that caused him to act the way he does- and unless he does make an admission he will only continue to make things worse for himself as for the time being he just seems like an AGP male with a fetish for being viewed as a young girl instead of an adult male.

I wish Dylan peace and happiness as I do all people but he is never going to win any rational persons support the way he currently acts. He doesn’t deserve hatred, he probably has all sorts of stuff to work through as trans people generally do. But if he continues to act in a way that can be generally viewed as pedophilic and or misogynistic he will only dig himself a deeper hole.

I hope this has made my opinion more clear ☺️

Except Michael had real mental health issues and infantilised himself as away of escaping from his difficult and tumultuous adult life.

Let's be frank. Michael Jackson's presentation of himself as a naive, infantilised, child-like adult – complete with a fairground that he could bring young boys home to play on – was simply a cover that allowed him to sexually abuse children.

Dylan is utterly offensive. I also thought it was very clever satire initially- seeing how far you could go whilst having people support your right to be who you want, and now realise it's not. They are offensive, and the wide eyed, I'm a girl shite is vile quite frankly. The comments they make are vile, and the only thing I can say is congratulations on the absolute crap ton of money they have made exploiting tick tok

Both reflect((ed) in MJ's case) a Man in the Mirror.

Dylan is a performer, none of his content is to be taken at all seriously.

In fairness, you've absolutely no idea what trauma Dylan may have gone through. Dont think we should start playing troubled background to excuse MJs behaviour or Dylan's - especially when it's impossible to know any true extent.