When did this board become a "safe space"?

In that definition of a safe space, I’d agree

In this particular context, where women raising GC / safeguarding concerns are often fired / sent death threats, “Mumsnet is a safe space” means that here we can say what we really think and not worry that we’ll lose our income or physical safety as a result.

Mylittlesandwich
its ok - you are allowed to say it. Mostly women don’t want to outright ban every trans women from every women space unilaterally and absolutely. The facts of the matter is that there is a middle ground in the trans debate and one that society is going to have to find but sadly not debating / discussing here.

Right, but the opposite of 'that absolutionist nonsense' is in fact a woman somewhere being forced to birth a child she doesn't want.

And I can't get behind that.

Equally surrogacy needs to be reevaluated. Unlike abortion in this case it's the baby's rights that are at risk. I'm not sure I can support a system where a baby is removed from its mother at birth for no good reason.

Those conversations do happen, there is variety of thought and expression.

People move along the range of opinions and back again.

The problem of reflecting a range of gender views seems to be that those pushing genderism don't like robust discussion with those expressing gender critical views seems to be that their arguments aren't very solid, and they don't like the bruised feelings.

MangyInseam
And that’s the issue isn’t it. The Op asked if board had become a ‘safe space’ as in ‘no debate’ and a couple of us dared to say it has! But the reason it is so one sided is because of the utter unwillingness of the people in this board to debate areas that for most of the population is a nuanced debate. So they don’t reinforcing the echo chamber

I mean, I don't find it safe. I am not gender critical and as soon as that is disclosed anywhere I'm ripped a new one. So personally this is the opposite of a safe space for me. Not just this section either.

FWIW I would say that there aren't real debates about abortion on FWR or maybe even on MN - people self-censor so it tends to be a rather one sided discussion that doesn't reflect the views of the public, or even most women.

Agh, excuse my double-negatives in the post above, I hope the intent is clear!

You are free to say that on any discussion where you think someone is being insufficiently cautious about something or some person or is making a misguided statement.

That is totally different than saying people can't discuss or have views that you disagree with because you don't happen to think they are insufficiently centering women.

And they are of course free to say that you are dismissing someone who is saying something true or useful for poor reasons.

I don't think FWR is an echo chamber, but critics are correct that if it were, that would be a bad thing, including for discussing the effect of GI on women.

People are entitled to their opinion, if they think someone says something insightful, or does something worthwhile, and it affects the issues we discuss, or interest people on the board.

Support threads are pretty much by definition a place for certain people to talk together, That doesn't mean the whole board ought to be run that way, with people policing, or being policed, as to what they say.

That's just another version of the kind of "safe space" most people here have had bad experiences with, and the opposite of what many posters say they value about discussions here. And it's another version of "be kind" as much as it's being put in the language of "putting women first".

Brokendaughter
😂😂😂😂👍

I think the over use of the term 'safe space' is like the ridiculous over use of 'valid'.

Ten years ago, if I heard someone say valid they were probably asking if a train ticket could be used on a particular train.

Now, every other thing is about stuff, people, topics being 'valid' or 'validated'.

Same with safe space, after you've heard ninety billion & two people wanging on about how they need a safe space to clip their toenails, you start using it ironically back at them.

Before you know it, instead of telling your teen to get out of your bedroom because you want to have a lie in for half an hour on your day off, you find yourself telling them that you are in your safe space as you need some me time.

picklemewalnuts
But isn’t not and you have exactly proven my previous post. The alternative ISN’T forced birth!! Because we don’t live in an absolutist world. It’s only on this board. The debate can (& should) be abortion but within limits and the debate is around those limits but we cant ever get to that because your stuck with this absolutionist nonsense. And it’s not even then consistent … because the abortion bodily autonomy no matter what then becomes not when it comes to surrogacy when suddenly women don’t have bodily autonomy and can’t do what they please with their own bodies.

i attempted to join the surrogacy ‘debate’ where all but 2 posters just repeatedly agree again and again that all surrogacy was bad and should be banned. or in my So great was there shock at there being 2 of us questioning the bodily autonomy / not bodily autonomy that I was immediately accused of a sock puppetry because there couldn’t possibly be TWO of us with a differing opinion and little engagement in the actual debate. Hilarious!!

Some of the posts here are the definition of irony.

They both claim that there is no hive mind or echo chamber but also then state what posters must or must not think
“Surrogacy is a great example. Because you need to then acknowledge that it is not just surrogacy, it is then donor eggs where donors receive any incentive to donate” No we don’t actually! You may think that but that is your opinion stated as always as fact when it isn’t!! That is what debate is.

or I only fully understood the debate once I’d been told how to think.

OmiOmy do you geneuinely believe that the the response to auntie (or me) on this thread represents a debate (thus ironic)?

An area of my thinking that has developed in this board concerns abortion, autie.

I am really struggling to get my head around 'as soon as possible, as late as necessary, No Debate!'.

I have so many problems with that and am not alone, I know.

However the alternative is forced birthing. Even more abhorrent.

My sons will never have any control over any future babies they may conceive, it's a sad but necessary fact. No matter what a great dad they might make, they have no right to inflict childbearing on a woman.

Anyway that's a digression, but an example of an area where initially the boundaries on here look uncomfortably harsh.

Another shocker for me was that we don't have to soften our differences. We can state them as bluntly as we like. That was a really hard adjustment for this people pleaser.

@KozmicBlue topic/board. Sorry if tha wasn't clear.

Can you explain what you mean by 'group' here please?

Do you mean topic/board or do you mean an actual group of posters?

autie

Surely, if anything, the past two months have shown that there is plenty of variations of opinions on this board. It may seem to be wall of singular opinion if your opinion is entrenched that gender should be prioritised at all times.

This is a publicly open forum. There will always be posters who will be abusive, but it would be dishonest to hold those posters up as representative of FWR.

I hope that if you do actually engage in other threads that you might take on board that posts that do seek to disparage will receive push back. And why shouldn't it. It sets the tone for how a poster wishes to engage.

In saying that, I have seen posts from people who hold a different view who respect other's opinions and don't resort to those disparaging tactics and a lively discussion can be had.

And thank you I have absolutely reported abusive posts in the past and they have been removed.

@Helleofabore @OmiOmy

Yes you are right I have become defensive on this board because anytime I've tried to discuss I've been shut down. But yes tbf defensive is probably not a good starting point.

I don't disagree with a lot of your views, if I did I could understand your response abit better. I just see some grey areas and any attempts to discuss is not accepted. The group has a very rigid specific way of thinking and are not open to considering anything beyond that.

But I suppose this group doesn't have to be a place of debate in the same way that a lots of the groups on mn are not debate groups. So maybe it's a supportive place for people who share the same views. A safe space one might say.

And I don't dislike jk Rowling

Thanks OmiOmy for the advice.

It is my own need to find the truth of the arguments that mean that I do indeed pull apart and work through posts to understand them better. I read most links posted as well. I need to understand the arguments and how they are developing on all aspects.

Because I struggle with dishonesty, disingenuity and deliberate misrepresentations.

Surrogacy is a great example. Because you need to then acknowledge that it is not just surrogacy, it is then donor eggs where donors receive any incentive to donate.

You can silo it to 'surrogacy', but that then ignores the area that many consider more fluid. And of course, posters have been told that it is a form of homophobia to not support the exploitation of women's bodies for their reproductive capacity.