When did this board become a "safe space"?

I want to completely throw out my support for trans rights as a whole.

What about the rights for women and girls? Because so far you have just told us that your definition of female seems to be outside of that of the UK government.

If you cannot define female, how can you protect females?

I would suggest that you seem to have a superficial knowledge of the issues we are discussing. If you wish to cling onto a biologically unprovable definition that seem to allow males to change sex then that is your choice.

I would suggest though that your expectation that others respect your arguments when they do seem to be founded on misinformation and belief rather than proven science is going to be disappointed.

So far you have just told all females that they must accept a male who believes they pass as a woman as a health care professional because you

a) have a mistaken belief that so many males ‘pass’ because you personally don’t seem to be able to tell.

b) seem to believe that a male saying they are a women should be fully treated as a female despite themselves knowing they are male and that would cause distress to a female requesting female only services and that they should feel fully justified and righteous in doing so. Because you think they have changed sex.

c) seem to have no thought as to how any female can tell whether a male is enjoying their ‘being treated as a woman’ compared to enjoying having power over women and trampling on their boundaries.

and d) you don’t seem to have any other thoughts as to solutions other than ‘people shouldn’t do that’.

So far not one study has proven your belief while many have now shown the opposite?

Male pubertal advantages do not reduce to ‘female’ levels with hormone treatment.

What do you mean by ‘orientation’? Are you trying to imply that same sex attracted people are just as likely as transitioned males to cross boundaries of inappropriate behaviour? Because that would be extremely homophobic.

I have now given you three examples of males who acted inappropriately in female changing rooms or spas and you have doubled down on males should be there, but bad males should not.

You have not once shown any knowledge of safeguarding. How do you keep the males who act inappropriately out?

Do you think that the women and girls who have now been deeply affected are just collateral damage because those venues refused to safeguard females against male exposure? Because you believe that males should be able to access single sex spaces ?

What about part time ‘women’ such as Pip Bunce and Eddie Izzard? What has magically changed since they were males one day (for Izzard that is when he is doing a male role) vs being female the next day?

Do you have any thoughts? Or is it that something someone else will solve as well?

I think you're nailing the conflict there.

Does supporting male TQ - well, they're not rights, are they? This is exceptions and privileges specific to TQ status - necessitate harming and excluding female humans?

Are these harms and ways of treating females really acceptable to a thinking person with care and consideration for inclusion, equality, social justice?

And isn't this extremely sexist considering that you can split the beneficiaries and the harmed into two clear sex based groups?

What are trans rights?

What rights that everyone else has do trans people not have?

Things are black and white - humans cannot change sex, it's impossible. Spaces and services that are delineated on the basis of sex are done so for damn good reasons and it is the sex of someone that matters in those cases, not their internal feelings of gender. It's really simple. Blurring the edges and removing boundaries violates those from whom those boundaries are being removed - that is NOT a right.

So , is your definition different?

Female humans have bodies formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether that body produces large gametes, is producing or has produced those large gametes. No female human has a body, or had a body, that was formed around the production of small gametes.

If you believe that you have another definition for female, please tell us.

What is interesting is that except for extreme trans activists, I believe that most trans people acknowledge their sex. Yet, you are conflating sex and gender in some way. This seems to go against most reasonable trans people’s opinion as well as the majority of the general population.

And there have been at least 2 points that have been raised to me today that I said needed further thought and consideration on my part. But I won't be changing my mind immediately without further thought and consideration. I find it difficult to fall entirely on either side of this debate. As as has been shown there are situations I haven't considered or been aware of when things aren't black and white but that doesn't mean I want to completely throw out my support for trans rights as a whole.

Is it ok to hold really dodgy opinions just because you personally can't make that thing happen? That seems a bit of a cop out really.

Isn't the point of debate and discussion to address and pin down in argument what is right, what is wrong? Why a belief is held and why you feel it is not wrong, and to be able to justify and evidence it? To listen to others' views and see how they affect and change viewpoints, and address issues and considerations you perhaps hadn't thought of?

I thought the complaint on this thread was that no one would properly discuss these issues.

Yes but you are on the side of making it happen aren't you?

Your are at least honest about how little you value women and girls safety, privacy, dignity and comfort and how you prioritise males and their feeling, wants and wishes over and above women and girls which is unusual around these parts, especially on a Feminism Board.

You say that as if my opinions have the power to do that? I'm one single person? I could say I think every blade of grass should be dyed blue because my dog doesn't like green, that doesn't mean it would happen.

It's very lovely that the GP is feeling happy and contented with their life.

However they are doing it by using females providing intimate access to get those lovely feelings. Whether they are using them for emotional pleasure or sexual pleasure - well what's the difference? Using intimate access to female bodies for ANY personal agenda is unacceptable and unprofessional.

If you work in these fields you are expected, as standard, to examine all the time 'am I choosing to do this because of my patient/client's best interests or because I am using this to meet my own needs'. It's a part of professional practice. This is not acceptable behaviour.

And that still does not address that articles like this are intended to shift the boundaries from 'some females consent and that is so lovely for me as a validating experience' to 'it is unacceptable for any female to deny a male hcp that validation hence they should not be permitted to refuse consent regardless of their needs, feelings and medical best interest as a patient'.

Using females for male purposes is wrong. They are not props in male lives. They do not exist as therapeutic resources for males.

Using patients and intimate access to their bodies in health care as a personal experience and a hcp placing their desire to meet their own needs using that person's body above the person's consent and best interests? That isn't just wrong, that is abhorrent.

It's patently obvious you are not an expert and yet here you are willing to flush women and girls boundaries down the toilet in order that men can be happy and content because of your opinion.

If I've missed anything can you please let me know. I have ADHD and found the pile of posts a wee bit hard to follow.

Well I'm not an expert, this is just my understanding.

If this GPs "pleasure" at the situation is to do with being accepted as female in their place of work I can kind of see how that would make them happy and content within their life.

If it's another kind of pleasure derived from these examinations then that wouldn't be acceptable if they were male of female.

I don't disagree but my definition of female and yours are not the same.

And yours is completely at odds with the legal definition enshrined in statute.

As far as trans women having a physical advantage over those who were born female hormone blockers and other hormone treatments should lessen these advantages.

Should - gosh how very comforting.

I don't disagree but my definition of female and yours are not the same.

As I said, anyone of any gender or orientation behaving inappropriately in a space like a changing room has no place there. As far as trans women having a physical advantage over those who were born female hormone blockers and other hormone treatments should lessen these advantages.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs it would never be my intention to cause further harm to someone who has been through something as harmful as rape or SA. And truthfully I don't know how I would react in that situation. I would expect any healthcare provider would act with grace and dignity and want to support that victim however they could, even if that may be hurtful to them on a personal level. Because let's face it in this moment it isn't about them, it's about the person who has been through that traumatic event. I think this is a situation which needs further thought and consideration. Bother from my personal point of view and probably a legal one.

It is impossible for a male to transition to female, female and male are sexes and it is a sheer impossibility to change sex. The certificate than some apply for acknowledges this as it is a GENDER Recognition Certificate NOT a Sex Recognition Certificate and holders of said certificate are still legally excluded from areas by dint of their SEX.

Nice to know you are all for women's boundaries being trampled over and their bodies violated and used as validation tools for males - refreshing honesty even though it is repugnant.

@Brokendaughter and I agree with you there. If you think I've said something ridiculous then fine, that's ok. But if for example you were to turn around and tell me that I am a terrible person and I don't deserve to be a mother (that is what was said before) then that I would be upset with and feel it was uncalled for.

@Helleofabore

"To clarify. If a male who identifies as a woman knows that a patient may be distressed by them being male, and has explicitly and clearly asked that they only have a female carer, do you think that this is ok?*"
*
We won't agree here because my opinion is that if someone has transitioned to female then they are female so would fall under the bracket of female when requesting a female practitioner. I'm aware this will strike a nerve, I'm no expert, this is my personal opinion.

Starting here, gender is more than just what you look like so my view is that (with exceptions as there are in any group of people) most trans women are genuine beard or otherwise. There are terrible people in any walk of life and of course trans women are not immune to this.

Right, I'm back. I'll reply to as many as I can this evening before I head to bed. This might take a while.

The violation of women and the validation for the GP make me feel physically sick.

Do you think this is acceptable @Mylittlesandwich ?