When did this board become a "safe space"?

What is the real issue here - that bad people exist? Unfortunately the idea that all crimes are committed by 'a few bad apples' who will exist regardless of society's attempts to defeat them, is a complete fantasy. All human behaviour is learned. The purpose of legally defined single sex spaces is to enforce a supposed societal value. Its impossible to prevent all murder or violence, but by making something a punishable crime reinforces a universal value that some behaviour is unacceptable. Yes a predator can walk into a womens toilet - how to prove a predatory act in a courtroom, is something else entirely.

By the way sandwich I am sorry that you were a victim of assault. I hope you have good support.

However, while you are right that it would be racist for any safeguarding assessment to regard a particular race as being more prone to violence, your comparison is not relevant otherwise.

As I said upthread, all males over a certain age are considered a higher risk than a female for safeguarding. Because they are male.

If you have evidence otherwise, do please post it. Otherwise I am very happy to post the statistics that have been aggregated by women going through individual records that show that in the UK there is no evidence at all that males commit sexual crimes at a rate nearing females after they transition.

The statistics show that UK transitioned male prisoner records for sex crimes are at a higher % than general male prisoners.

So, why should a group of males be treated any differently to the rest of the male population for safeguarding risk assessment?

What can the males who won’t do ‘shorty’ things wear to tell females they are not the ones who will harm them? Otherwise, how do we tell them apart?

It seems the only people you deem worthy of having rights and boundaries are male trans people @Mylittlesandwich .

Your arguments are that no-one else, particularly women and girls, should have the right to their own bodily autonomy, privacy or dignity, who should see them naked, who should touch them and who should provide them with intimate care.

How about men who request male hcps when having prostate examinations? Are they allowed boundaries in your Brave New World?

Thank you but that is from the USA. It also doesn’t have the data behind it

They hid the data on purpose. I think their sample size was 4 or something (of crimes committed against the TW they surveyed.) 95% confidence intervals for the statistic they’re discussing (ratio of crimes against women:crimes against TW) included 1.

It’s horseshit, in other words. And cherry picked horseshit to boot. I can only imagine what the statistics they didn’t use looked like if they ended up running with that one.

(It’s been discussed on MN before, and the data was linked from here, but I didn’t save it. I actually remember the specific issues off the top of my head because of how staggeringly stupid and dishonest the Williams Institute press release is. Hope you can find it!)!

An impossible task, the internet will still be there in the morning

I have had several people directing posts at me all day. I'm doing my best to reply to everyone so I can't be accused of flouncing or being chased off etc.

Go to bed then lol

Like I said it's late and I didn't fully understand what you'd said. That's why I asked you to clarify.

It's for Helleofabore not sire why that not working. Gremlins in the interwbs

Telling that your first assumption is someone making a personal attack rather than a commitment to a passionate viewpoint

It's still not clear what that's in relation to. I've done my best to answer any question I've been given. Aside from those most recent as it's now after midnight and I have a small child to look after in the morning.

Trying to reply to this with:
Look at the dismissive response to your last post - not even pretending to answer perfectly reasonable questions and yet feeling no shame at the lack of debate . That's not an opposing view it's entitled - pretty typical sexism

Sorry my Internet is very slow - not sure this is attached to the right post. I can't see on here

If you're having a go could you do it more plainly please I'm very tired.

Look at the dismissive response to your last post - not even pretending to answer perfectly reasonable questions and yet feeling no shame at the lack of debate . That's not an opposing view it's entitled - pretty typical sexism

Thank you but that is from the USA. It also doesn’t have the data behind it. I shall search for the data tomorrow.

I see the article brings in the murder rate of transitioned males. I am sure all reading will be very pleased to know that no trans person has been murdered in the UK for at least a couple of years.

And yet… females are being murdered at two or more a week in the UK.

I am looking forward to seeing the data that has driven that article. Because we have also heard that in the UK misgendering by a soon to be ex-wife is considered spousal abuse. And we also know that too many females do not recognise the hatred behind the crimes against us because we are socialised not to.

I suspect that the data set will show that the wording of that article is not quite able to be taken at face value.

Besides which, I certainly acknowledge that the USA is a very different place than the UK. This board tends to be concerned about UK laws and the impacts on those living here though.

Men are conditioned to believe that women are lesser humans - not capable of the feelings, the intellect, the emotions of men. It doesn't matter how many examples of female suffering you provide - there are none so blind

While we looking at accepting people’s identities as being something to be supported and believed, what about the male in Norway who identifies as disabled and uses a wheelchair despite being able and with no disability at all. Is that male to be supported? Should this male receive government support for a disability that they do not have? Should people have to treat this person as being disabled if they know they are not?

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/

What about Stephonee who is a middle aged male who identifies as being a 6 year old girl (or whatever age they are now)? Should Stephonee go to primary school? Should Stephonee be able to play sport against the under 8 year olds?

I am very happy to link you up with articles about Stephonee.

What other identities should be supported and respected? The people who have cosmetic procedures to resemble another group’s race?

What about the male who forced his way into a mother’s group and announced they were personally giving birth to a stillborn child that week? Should that male have had access to that mother’s group, and should that male have been supported in their identity as a pregnant person? At all?

I am not pointing these people out for any other reason than to ask, do you support any of these people and if not why are transitioned males any different in the level of support you give.

Where is the line for you? Is there a line?

You are wasting your breath, as is any woman trying to argue this point reasonably. Men are already untouchable. Society is designed to protect them. Patriarchy learns, like capitalism, to fight feminism from the inside. No one gives up power willingly. Until women put aside their superficial differences and unite as simply women, they will never beat the system.

Half asleep but here's a link williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.

Than which other group?

Please provide statistics that prove this, otherwise it is just more misinformation.

They need the support of women, another group who suffers these horrible crimes.

Why should women solve the issues of male people?

Why should any female be put at risk of male people because they haven’t sorted a solution that didn’t involve making females vulnerable?

They have whole lobby groups and plenty of time. Why is it an issue for females to help solve?

They aren't the enemy

This is hyperbolic emotional manipulation. No one has said they are the enemy.

You're never going to agree with me, you see me as part of the problem. That's ok, you fight for what you believe is right and I'll do the same. I've seen too many people, friends, hurt to ever fully step away from my stance. It's personal for me.

Yes. It seems personal for you. I am sure it is very personal for just about every female who has engaged with you on this thread.

But you have now stated that you prioritise males over females. Own that and argue your position.

I am sorry. But saying ‘there are bad people and they are shitty’ doesn’t cover the significant safeguarding issues that there are.

The risk is males. Not any particular race or age or other description of male, but male.

Do you have any evidence at all that males who transition then commit sex crimes at the same rate as females? Yes or no?

Because if not, do you understand that by allowing males into female single sex space and to do intimate procedures on females is informally creating a class of untouchable males? Just like other historical males who were deemed as unquestionable for the abhorrent things they did to children and women.

The end point of your argument will be that no male who says some words can be excluded. Because so far women and girls have been harmed and still any male who says they are a woman can have access to women’s single sex spaces and as a health care provider, women’s bodies.

When will enough women and girls be harmed that will convince you that males should be excluded sometimes and that is perfectly reasonable and acceptable. Regardless of their gender.

I will reply more fully tomorrow but I don't expect my arguments to be respected. If you look through my posts I've said call what I've said stupid if it's what you think just don't personally attack me.

And yes I've made a couple of typing errors in there. It's late, I'm tired.

I'll be back tomorrow, this has worn me right out.

Now I'm homophobic too. Wow I'm on a roll tonight! Does that mean I hate myself, well half of myself? I digress.

Shitty people, abhorrently shitty people shouldn't be anywhere quite frankly. But they are. Do I know how to keep the shitty people away? No I do not. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer. I was once assaulted by a black man. Does that mean all black men are now banned from being within 6ft of me? No. Because that's stupid and quite frankly racist. People who break laws should be punished. People who break rules for the area there in should be barred from that area. If private clubs etc want to ban trans women altogether then that is there prerogative. I know the law seeks to make that impossible but I truthfully don't see that happening. There's too much contention around it. Before someone comes back with I'm only ok with it because I don't think it'll happen I would welcome the change but I don't see it. Chances are they are places that I wouldn't feel comfortable in either because of how I look and my preferences on who I socialise with. But I'm happy to share my spaces with trans women. Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault. They need the support of women, another group who suffers these horrible crimes. They aren't the enemy. You're never going to agree with me, you see me as part of the problem. That's ok, you fight for what you believe is right and I'll do the same. I've seen too many people, friends, hurt to ever fully step away from my stance. It's personal for me.