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Original poster

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

615 replies

nauticant · 07/11/2022 12:40

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Ameanstreakamilewide · 08/11/2022 13:16

And?

MargaritaPie · 08/11/2022 13:15

"LGBA do have trans identified persons in their user base."

A userbase which is 93% hetero and non-trans.

Ramblingnamechanger · 08/11/2022 13:13

Thank you from my sick bed for all the commentary. Did anyone at any stage point out MM history of pushing surgery/ hormones on its core group?…I guess not as they brought the case, but surely if LGBA doesn’t do that they are operating within charitable limits?

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 13:04

Judgment reserved means the decision of the court will be given later on, and not on the day the hearing ends.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 08/11/2022 13:03

Thanks all

Tallisker · 08/11/2022 13:03

What does judgement reserved mean?

FlibbertyGiblets · 08/11/2022 13:01

Thank you, wims, much appreciated.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/11/2022 13:00

waiting

I hate the waiting....

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 12:59

Thanks, nauticant et al.

FriendofJoanne · 08/11/2022 12:58

Yes, thanks @nauticant and everyone.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 08/11/2022 12:56

Thanks to nauticant for the excellent thread management and to everyone for the splendid commentary and excellent asides.

FriendofJoanne · 08/11/2022 12:56

Oh my god I just realised the Dog's Trust are totally transphobic! so are the RSPCA, Cat's Protection. NONE of them centre trans people.

ickky · 08/11/2022 12:54

Thank you @nauticant for all the threads and competent commentary.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 08/11/2022 12:54

nauticant · 08/11/2022 12:16

The question was about "a lesbian with a penis" wanting to use the service which was answered that LGBA would be interested in their world view rather than the nature of the person, but of course in this case "a lesbian with a penis" is by definition going to have an incompatible world view.

I am currently registering a new charity. You need to say who your services are for. I can’t see why a charity’s services have to be for everyone. I’m heterosexual so why would I get support from an LGB charity? I’m not disabled so why would I expect support from a charity for disabled people even if I ‘identified’ as disabled?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 08/11/2022 12:53

MargaritaPie · 08/11/2022 12:20

Can people of colour use the KKK?

Can chickens use KFC?

The answer might be a yes but a better question might be would it be in their best interest to do so.

Show quote history

I would imagine that the sorts of services that the KKK operate would be things like "we offer to harrass your black neighbour, and will try our best to harrass her so much that she ends up moving. We will then let good honest white people know the house is up for sale to maximise your chances of getting a white neighbour next time."

So, might a black woman use the KKK? Presumably a black woman whose hatred of her black neighbour is sufficient would be happy to deal with racists she hates, if it means getting rid of the neighbour that she hates more.

So, the question is, what services a trans person might wish to use that LGBA offer. Well, if they are a gay man who identifies as a trans woman then presumably the LGBA can give the same support they might give any gay man. Or they might wish to advise the gay man that other gay men like cock, which makes surgery very very risky... if your "target market" is men who like cock then you should probably think long and hard (no pun intended) before having yours removed.

If they are a straight man who identifies as a trans woman and lesbian, the LGBA can give advice on not rapily and coercively harrassing lesbians, and that men who want sex with women are by definition straight and not part of the LGB community.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 08/11/2022 12:53

Thanks all so much for the commentary

And the chicken crossing the road joke Grin

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 12:52

All done. Judgment reserved.

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 12:50

IS if aspects point in different directions that would cause problems for CC

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 12:48

IS provided a good argument that if the tribunal decide Mermaids don't have standing then they should stop there. It would leave the CC in the mess of legal matters concluded leaving the registration of LGBA as being in limbo.

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 12:47

Everyone wants to avoid an appeal

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 12:47

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 12:45

He's saying that if the case fails on standing the tribunal should still rule on the rest of the case in case there is an appeal. KM, I think, argued that if it fails on standing that should be the end of it.

Show quote history

I stand corrected. KM saying they should rule on the lot.
CC saying it should stop if the case fails on standing.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 12:47

Is it MG's tactic to put everyone in a catatonic trance and make hypnotic implanted suggestions?!

RESIST, EVERYONE!

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 12:46

LipbalmOrKnickers · 08/11/2022 12:42

They're coming after you next Arabella - all those donations you diverted to Hvaldimir put you on their radar...

Show quote history

<falls into daydream of running away to escape and getting to the coast and meeting Hvaldimir and riding off on the back of a white whale over the sea into the sunset-lit frothy-tipped waves>

<blinks>

What?

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 12:45

He's saying that irrespective of what the tribunal decide on standing, they should also provide full reasoning on the substantive issue of whether LGBA has charitable Articles.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 08/11/2022 12:45

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 12:43

Is he saying: if Mermaids fall on standing, ie they should never have brought the case in the first place, nothing will be properly resolved, ...

so don't do that please?

He's saying that if the case fails on standing the tribunal should still rule on the rest of the case in case there is an appeal. KM, I think, argued that if it fails on standing that should be the end of it.