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Original poster

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

615 replies

nauticant · 07/11/2022 12:40

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
WearyLady · 07/11/2022 15:32

What a contrast between Mr Gibbon and Mr Steele. The former muffled on incomprehensibly for hours before getting to the point. The latter was clear, concise and admirably to the point. Well done MR Steele.

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 07/11/2022 15:31

That question from the bench was nuts wasn't it? That there is no agreed definition of what lesbian, gay and bisexual means so what if LGB alliance starts serving people that are trans but call themselves LG or B and what would happen then?

My head was 🤯

Original poster
nauticant · 07/11/2022 15:28

AR: if we start at 10am, with no problems I should be done by lunchtime.

Done for the afternoon, back tomorrow.

OP posts:
chilling19 · 07/11/2022 15:28

Yes, the CC has made LGBA's argument for them in the main

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/11/2022 15:27

That sounded a wee bit desperate from the mermaids people

TeenDivided · 07/11/2022 15:26

Can they award all the costs against mermaids? I'd like to see them having to pay for not only their own costs, but also the CC and LGBA.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 15:25

Round of applause for the man with logic and common sense. 👏

Original poster
nauticant · 07/11/2022 15:25

IS wraps up, some questions from the bench.

OP posts:
Chrysanthemum5 · 07/11/2022 15:23

Will he speak again after the LGBA counsel?

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/11/2022 15:22

The CC counsel has noted the negative effect of a process like this in a young charity - they can do any work while all their money is going on this

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 15:21

I've come to the conclusion that it's all to try and drain funds. So things drag, drag, drag on, and eventually get dropped, and then they win by default.

Birdsweepsin · 07/11/2022 15:21

does that mean that Mermaids are not the brains behind this?

💅i couldn't possibly comment

dworky · 07/11/2022 15:21

Maugham?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 07/11/2022 15:19

These are such obvious points he’s making! So why didn’t Mermaids think of them? Is the point of this case to cause disruption and hassle, not necessarily to win?

I wonder whose idea this case was. If Stonewall and Mermaids were initially in it together does that mean that Mermaids are not the brains behind this? Are they being used?

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 15:18

This is very good indeed - that challenges to CC decisions are a matter for the government, and not a tribunal.

Polestar50 · 07/11/2022 15:18

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 14:53

Hvaldimir might have got a couple too.

Hvaldimir just got a little boost from me.
They're probably wondering why there's suddenly a little random rush of donations from women in the UK 😂

chilling19 · 07/11/2022 15:15

Naut - exactly. The ruling class would not like a challenge to their public school system AT ALL.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 15:14

And your point from about four mins ago nauticant 👏

picklemewalnuts · 07/11/2022 15:13

I like the sound of this!

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/11/2022 15:13

Gosh he's taking no prisoners is he

WearyLady · 07/11/2022 15:12

I like his point that having charities with divergent views encourages debate which is good for broader society.

chilling19 · 07/11/2022 15:11

Oh, he mentioned the importance of debate! Which is exactly what Mermaids are trying to shut down.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 07/11/2022 15:11

This is good - the public benefit is in the debate itself.

Original poster
nauticant · 07/11/2022 15:11

what an absolute shitshow would ensue if this ruling opened the floodgates to allow this

Especially because the attack mounted by Mermaids isn't against LGBA's application to become registered but that the registration that was a done deal in the past should never have happened, so this hearing in effectively a rehearing of the decision-making process of the CC. If third party challenges can reach into the past in this way, they can possibly go after any charity, whenever it was registered.

OP posts:
Chrysanthemum5 · 07/11/2022 15:09

I also likes how he says he's sure mermaids will not be claiming certain things - when we all know they are 😂