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Original poster

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

615 replies

nauticant · 07/11/2022 12:40

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 12:02

I think TT are informing court of relevant fact not commenting on proceedings.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 08/11/2022 12:02

Ah, mine too, in that case.

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 12:01

Yes ickky that looks my mistake.

OP posts:
Ameanstreakamilewide · 08/11/2022 12:00

Did Mr Mulla make a comment? I could only see the comment made by TT in the chat?

ickky · 08/11/2022 12:00

I think they are calling on the clerk to chastise.

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 12:00

Ooh FWS's Judicial Review (starting tomorrow) get a mention.

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 12:00

Tribunal to be aware of the current controversy and that different views are acceptable.

FannyCann · 08/11/2022 12:00

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/11/2022 11:31

God , I’d forgotten what an absolute loon Nicholson was. He was the politician who was far too busy and important for this but couldn’t give a straight answer to anything, making his display of awfulness drag oooon and oooon

Aside of the case itself, isn't it rather an embarrassment for a politician who was called to give evidence in court to have that court discount his evidence on the basis of the poor quality of said evidence?

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:59

Also in the chat is idiot Andie (she/her) telling off the clerk of the court.

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:59

TT comment in chat room - It is not under appeal I believe - a forthcoming related case is imminent but it's not quite the same case (this time it relates to persons with a Gender Recognition Certificate only

(Andie she/her not happy)

ickky · 08/11/2022 11:58

Jennifer Smith of tribunal tweets has mane a comment in the chat box that it is an imminent case, not an appeal. Then Andie (She/Her) has piped up that it is not for commentary. 😂

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:56

KM quotes judge comment in case that is in appeal (male/female quota on boards). Bench to find out more details.

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 11:56

Listening to her quote some of the recent case law it makes you realise that all the recent the funding of cases is starting to pay dividends and how important it is to continue to fund these cases.

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:55

The first Allison Bailey case is a shocking example of how you cannot take for granted that people in a court won't believe mad things and that you need to go to first principles for everything and make sure they believe what is common knowledge/commonly understood and if not to challenge their mad beliefs.

OP posts:
Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:54

ickky · 08/11/2022 11:53

It really is astonishing that this even needs to be said, it's like having to confirm and prove that the sky is above us and not below, it is just known.

Sky bigot. The sky can be wherever it wants.

ickky · 08/11/2022 11:53

It really is astonishing that this even needs to be said, it's like having to confirm and prove that the sky is above us and not below, it is just known.

Mmmnotsure · 08/11/2022 11:52

KM The GRC - if we want to see real confusion, that's the place to find it

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:52

Bench also seems incredulous that this has to be stated.

Datun · 08/11/2022 11:51

I note from earlier posts that there are quite a few journalists watching this. I hope they write it up that mermaids want to change the entire meaning of homosexuality.

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:50

Chromosonal, gonadal and genital appearance - sex

Gender is self identified

Confusion when these are used interchangeably

AutumnCrow · 08/11/2022 11:49

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:48

Can't believe she has to explain this to a judge

It's probably for the best, these days.

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:49

Now onto the Equality Act.

First part - gender reassignment defined at section 7. It does not have the effect of changing a person's legal sex - we find that in the GRA.

Section 11 - sex is defined. Protected characteristic is a 'man' or a 'woman'

Man means a male of any age, woman a female of any age. Female and Male are biologically rooted.

Even if there were doubt, case law confirms a biological root.

(Quotes Christie Elan-Cane case - the person who wanted 'no gender on a passport, which specifies diff between sex and gender)

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:48

Can't believe she has to explain this to a judge

PicturesOfDogs · 08/11/2022 11:48

This is what we’ve been waiting for.
The equality act meaning of sex brought bare before the courts.

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:48

Looking at EA

Definition of gender reassignment does not have the effect of changing a persons legal sex. We find that in GRA

Sex is defined as a man or a woman. What a man or a woman is for these purposes is defined as man is a male of any age, woman is a female of any age. What is meant by male and female is biologically rooted.