Gender Swapped Greek Myths

Because testicles give you an innate understanding of boat ropes, obviously.

I don't think Graves was the first to suggest Homer was a woman. Samuel Butler in the 19th century raised the idea. Someone thought that the ship's rigging being inaccurate was evidence for this. Interesting case of reverse transing* and for a weak reason. Not apparently applicable to Graves.
*Reverse because uts usually done to a woman.

On a side note Artemis was actually in Greek mythology sometimes a God and sometimes a Goddess. Even today I’m Greece, it’s a unisex name.

Sausagenbacon i SO agree about the marvellous Mary Renault! She came to my school when I was 11 (long ago) and although I can't remember what she said, she had a great impact on me. Her books have been important to me.

Robert Graves wrote Homers Daughter, which posited that the writer of the Odyssey was a woman, Nausicaa, because there are an unusual number of female references in the book.

Totally agree. What an epically missed opportunity 🤦‍♀️

I liked "Circe" except the end. My parents doomed me to collecting as many versions of the Odyssey as I could, and that book writes against the foretelling of Tiresias of Odysseus' ending. As do many other attempts at sequels. I look forward to trying Emily Wilson's translation. I think it is worth pointing out that Homer, even in men's translations, treats the female characters (except the Ithacan servants) with sympathy.

There’s no point comparing the divine to humans. The reason the gods and goddesses could violate every human moral law is because they were not human. Every rape Zeus did was proof he was not human. Every baby Hera murdered was proof she was not a human mother.

The Greeks were not meant to compare themselves or see their gods or goddesses as role models. They were beings meant to be feared and obeyed to whom no mortal law or sense of morality applied.

Lovely anecdote, Zanda.

And yes, a great poem: archive.ph/bRWbu

The World's Wife is fab.

The World’s Wife has been out for years. The last poem ‘Demeter’ always brings a tear to my eye. I think it’s because my daughter explained it to me over dinner one night then read it to me, very beautifully, afterwards. I gave her such a big hug.

Interesting- might give The Worlds Wife a go. I liked Circe by MM.

I listened to a recent ish new translation of The Odyssey a while ago - the first translation into English by a woman. It’s a great read / listen - very clear and beautiful. And there are long but v interesting introduction sections too.

amp.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/08/the-odyssey-translated-emily-wilson-review

It’s not a “story retold from this perspective” - it’s a proper translation. But like all translations of poetry, there are styles and ways of doing it that reflect the translators views and perspectives, as well as the style they choose. This line, spoken in the poem by Helen of Troy, is a case in point:

“They made my face the cause that hounded them.” This last line is translated by Fagles as “shameless whore that I was”, and by Stephen Mitchell as “bitch that I was”. The Greek is kunopis, a rare word literally meaning dog-face, or dog-eye. There are few contexts in which to see this word in use, but it is applied by Euripides to the Furies, terrifying creatures that “hound” murderers. It does not carry, argues Wilson, the overtones of female sexual destructiveness that are often applied in its translation. And so another small but significant transformation is effected.

The Worlds Wife is great, isn't it. Personally think that Madeline Miller's writing is dull - give me Mary Renault any day - but I know I'm in the minority.

I think The Worlds Wife by Carol Ann Duffy and Circe by Madeline Miller are interesting as the tell the same story but from the female viewpoint.

Absolutely oldgardeinia
What people seem unable to grasp is that, in general, the deities of both sexes were not moral. Any amount of changing sexes is pointless when you consider how badly the goddesses behaved.

Seems a bit of a weird take to me. Were there that many people thinking that Zeus turning into a swan and raping a woman was some kind of salutary life example for the listener? That swapping the sexes will suddenly make people realise that this is wrong after all?

And does this book include the story of a male god turning a huntress into a stag to be torn apart by her own hounds for accidentally seeing him bathing nude? Because that would be a great one. And I want to see male Hera and Athena sponsor an eleven year vendetta against Troy because they're jealous that a mortal said Male Aphrodite was better looking than them.

Greek gods were pretty awful to people regardless of their sex is mostly the message I think we take from the Greek myths, I always thought.

I read the article and I don’t at all get the impression they’re “dyed in the wool genderists”, making out like “hey this Greek heroine may have actually been a trans man”. What they seem to be doing is highlighting and shining a light on the assumptions people have of what is acceptable behaviour for men / male gods, and acceptable behaviour for women / female gods - and switching them round so the women are behaving in a way that isn’t traditionally feminine, and the men are behaving in a way that isn’t traditionally masculine. Which is of course much more like reality than the mythological and storyline pigeon holes that characters are put into.

And precisely because everything in Greek myths is larger than life, outrageous and exaggerated, it shows up our unconscious biases really clearly. So where people would have said of a “hero” “hey yes he led them all to their death cos he was pig headed, but he’s a hero so he was flawed but brilliant”, they see a woman hero doing the same exact thing, and realise that our unconscious biases are saying “omg you can’t do that, what a horrible person she is, no excuse for that behaviour”. Then of course you immediately realise your double standard and see your unconscious biases for what they really are. And you can have fun in enjoying the female characters marauding around not caring what anyone else thinks, and the male characters desperately wanting to be a father, or falling hopelessly in love.

As a child I remember being puzzled and a bit annoyed by having to read Greek and Roman myths and legends and tales of gods. They seemed very silly as well as somewhat disturbing. But then I found the Catholic doctrine I was brought up with silly and disturbing too.
What nonsense people believe and foist on children.

Don't forget that Dionysius was taken from Zeus' thigh!
Teresias was asked what sex was like for the different sexes and replied something like 'if the pleasure of sex can be counted as 10, 9 go to women, but 1 goes to men'.
I used to be fascinated by Greek mythology, but, even as a teenager, knew that they were fiction and a reflection of a long-gone society. That's one of the things that made them interesting.
The thought of miserable people trawling through them to make them fit the norms of today make me think of Samuel Bowlder, painstakingly going through Shakespeare to remove the bits unsuitable for women and children.

Thanks, Arabella. I'll look at the links later.

I'm trying to find a decent article in English!

As with all fairy tales, there's various interpretations, versions and readings, inevitably. The 'wolf' was often a 'were wolf' and in the older versions Red manages to escape by saying she has to pee ...

The needles and pins were said to be relevant to seamstresses in rural French history, I'm now trying and failing to find good sources ...

It's commonly accepted to relate to female puberty, though.

expositions.bnf.fr/contes/cles/verdier.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood

Ah, here we go:

www.terriwindling.com/folklore/red-riding-hood.html

that's a good essay - bit more complex than a 'warning against prostitution', perhaps:

'"Perrault's 'girls' are bien faites and gentilles: of the aristocracy. His warning is not simply to girls, but to the well-bred, educated women of high society who, in inviting men and women together in mixed company, set a dangerous precedent. Perrault's wolf is the dapper charmer of Parisian high society, seducer of young women and a threat to the family patrimony -- he is, as one folklorist has called him, the 'unsuitable suitor," who insinuated his way into the best beds in town, deflowering young women and robbing their value as virgin pawns in the marriage de raison."'

Yep very similar vibe

Reminded me of the men doing pin-up poses, Furry.

twistedsifter.com/2012/01/men-in-pin-up-poses/