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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 09/11/2022 08:13

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:05

TribunalTweets are going to be live tweeting from 10am tomorrow.

Info about FWS's first judicial review win is here, along with a link to the full court ruling:
forwomen.scot/25/02/2022/we-won-scottish-government-redefinition-of-woman-is-unlawful/

This ruling was NOT appealed by the Scottish Govt, it was accepted in full. As part of the court order they had to remove the unlawful definition of woman from the statutory guidance for the pubic boards Act. This included all footnotes - one of which referred to GRCs. However, ScotGov chose to add the reference to GRCs to the Equality Act's definition of woman in the main body of the revised guidance.

FWS considered this not compliant with the court order. ScotGov thinks it is because it considers the Equality Act definition of woman includes biological males who possess a GRC. More details about the case here:
forwomen.scot/18/07/2022/judicial-review-2/

and it was covered in the Telegraph.

From the court roll:
FWS is represented by Balfour + Manson
Respondent ScotGov have their own Legal Dept, SGLD
Respondent EHRC, Glasgow, is represented by Drummond Miller

and there are two interveners who lodged written submissions only; they won't be participating in the substantive hearing tomorrow:
Equality Network, represented by Dentons
and LGB Alliance, represented by Gilson Gray.

Essentially, this is a case where the Scottish Govt accepts that provision for women, by definition excludes biological males (ruling in the first JR), but now argues the definition of women includes biological males. 🙃

Thank you for the explanation. And I'm grateful as always to FWS for their dogged determination to see this through in court. It must be so stressful (and infuriating).

334bu · 09/11/2022 07:15

Thank you FWS for all your hard work.

RhannionKPSS · 08/11/2022 23:24

Just an aside & slightly off the topic, but worth listening to.
There is an irish reporter named Paddy O’ Gorman who has done a short podcast where he speaks to women in Ireland who were held in prison with trans identifying men.

Abitofalark · 08/11/2022 23:20

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 18:28

Sorry, I managed to only copy and pasted the 2nd half of the blog Abitofalark so the OP is incomplete information. The first part of the blog was in relation to the first judicial review that was won on appeal by FWS. The guidance refers to the "revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act" which FWS are saying is still not straightforwardly using the EA's definition.

...

“The meaning of “woman” for the purposes of the Act"

"2.12 There is no definition of “woman” set out in the Act with effect from 19 April 2022 following decisions of the Court of 18 February and 22 March 2022. Therefore “woman” in the Act has the meaning under section 11 and section 212(1) of the Equality Act 2010. In addition, in terms of section 9(1) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, where a full gender recognition certificate has been issued to a person that their acquired gender is female, the person’s sex is that of a woman, and where a full gender recognition certificate has been issued to a person that their acquired gender is male, the person’s sex becomes that of a man.”

www.gov.scot/publications/gender-representation-public-boards-scotland-act-2018-statutory-guidance-2/pages/2/

The whole blog can be read here...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

Thanks for that, Signal Box. I remember now reading a lot of detail here about the original policy and the review. Need to reconnect and plunge back into the thicket of arguments and definitions to follow it into the next stage.

Abitofalark · 08/11/2022 23:10

Hoardasurass · 08/11/2022 18:21

@Abitofalark it's the guidance for the equal representation Bill.
The Bill was supposed to make all public bodies 50% men and 50% women by positively discriminating in favour of women when you have 2 equal candidates. Unfortunately scot gov decided to redefine women aa anyone who identify as 1. Fws took them 2 court over the definition and won and scot government were ordered to change the definition in the Bill. They did however they then redefined woman to include any biological male with a GRC claiming that it changes your sex under the equality act (yet at the same time says the exact opposite in Parliament when talking about the gra reform). This new redefinition of women is what the review is about

Thanks for that, Hoardasurass, Ah, I remember now reading a lot on here some time ago about the representation on public bodies and the review. It's dreadful that it's still going on even after winning the case.

bitachey · 08/11/2022 22:40

Good to know how the SNP are spending taxpayers’ money FFS. I hope this gets into the papers. What a nonsense. 😡

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 22:16

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 21:08

It was mentioned when KM was going through all the case law. KM initially got it slightly wrong but then corrected herself. The judge confirmed it was taking place tomorrow.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 21:24

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:20

I wonder if FWS got awarded costs at the last JR?

Yep. £147,500. And it's paying for the new case.
forwomen.scot/21/09/2022/judicial-review-finances/

Oh brilliant that’s good to see.

OP posts:
RhannionKPSS · 08/11/2022 21:23

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:18

Karon M mistakenly said in the LGB Alliance hearing today that the first FWS judicial review was under review/appeal. I think she was corrected but unfortunately, it ended up being a bit muddled.

Thank you BetsyM00

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:20

I wonder if FWS got awarded costs at the last JR?

Yep. £147,500. And it's paying for the new case.
forwomen.scot/21/09/2022/judicial-review-finances/

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:18

Karon M mistakenly said in the LGB Alliance hearing today that the first FWS judicial review was under review/appeal. I think she was corrected but unfortunately, it ended up being a bit muddled.

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 21:17

Essentially, this is a case where the Scottish Govt accepts that provision for women, by definition excludes biological males (ruling in the first JR), but now argues the definition of women includes biological males.

They're so desperate aren't they for the definition of word woman to be inclusive of men. I wonder if FWS got awarded costs at the last JR? There really should be a hefty financial penalty when previous rulings are being so blatantly ignored.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 08/11/2022 21:08

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 20:38

I think that might just have been Tribunal Tweets comment, not actually mentioned in the tribunal? But I wasn't there, just going on the thread.

It was mentioned when KM was going through all the case law. KM initially got it slightly wrong but then corrected herself. The judge confirmed it was taking place tomorrow.

OP posts:
BetsyM00 · 08/11/2022 21:05

TribunalTweets are going to be live tweeting from 10am tomorrow.

Info about FWS's first judicial review win is here, along with a link to the full court ruling:
forwomen.scot/25/02/2022/we-won-scottish-government-redefinition-of-woman-is-unlawful/

This ruling was NOT appealed by the Scottish Govt, it was accepted in full. As part of the court order they had to remove the unlawful definition of woman from the statutory guidance for the pubic boards Act. This included all footnotes - one of which referred to GRCs. However, ScotGov chose to add the reference to GRCs to the Equality Act's definition of woman in the main body of the revised guidance.

FWS considered this not compliant with the court order. ScotGov thinks it is because it considers the Equality Act definition of woman includes biological males who possess a GRC. More details about the case here:
forwomen.scot/18/07/2022/judicial-review-2/

and it was covered in the Telegraph.

From the court roll:
FWS is represented by Balfour + Manson
Respondent ScotGov have their own Legal Dept, SGLD
Respondent EHRC, Glasgow, is represented by Drummond Miller

and there are two interveners who lodged written submissions only; they won't be participating in the substantive hearing tomorrow:
Equality Network, represented by Dentons
and LGB Alliance, represented by Gilson Gray.

Essentially, this is a case where the Scottish Govt accepts that provision for women, by definition excludes biological males (ruling in the first JR), but now argues the definition of women includes biological males. 🙃

TheBiologyStupid · 08/11/2022 21:04

The Tribunal Tweets thread says:

KM [Karon Monaghan KC - Counsel for LGB Alliance]: FWS case - issue concerned some devolved matters inc provisions which allow scot gov to introduce quotas. This provided for women's representation. Provided that woman included woman w[ith the] pc [personal characteristic] of gender reassignment. Court said that they had to separate the two pc's because of definitions
KM: PC of sex means sex. Man (male of any age) woman (woman of any age). Provisions for women in this context are rooted in sex. 2018 act was not redefined. Woman in the act is biologically rooted and doesn't depend on gender reassignment
[MG [Michael Gibbon KC, Counsel for Mermaids] points out that Scot ruling is under review]

web.archive.org/web/20221108144526/threadreaderapp.com/thread/1589912824742281218.html

RhannionKPSS · 08/11/2022 21:01

Fenlandia · 08/11/2022 16:10

So appreciative of FWS but galling it's down to determined, smart, private individuals to bring this into the public sphere rather than any number of well-paid civil society organisations.

Yes, it is galling that people, mainly women, have had to crowd fund this, as we did previously.
Scottish Government lost that time , paid costs, which meant that the people of Scotland pay twice, as it were, for bad policies, appalling, highly suspect, pathetic political decisions by inept fools like Shona Robison, Fulton MacGregor, Karen Adam, Pam Duncan Glancy & Maggie Chapman to name just a few.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 20:38

I think that might just have been Tribunal Tweets comment, not actually mentioned in the tribunal? But I wasn't there, just going on the thread.

RhannionKPSS · 08/11/2022 20:36

TheBiologyStupid · 08/11/2022 17:08

The upcoming judicial review got a mention today in the Mermaids v Charity Commission& LGB Alliance hearing, IIRC.

Please can you tell us what was said?

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2022 19:37

gagarhrhrhgh..

Signalbox · 08/11/2022 18:28

Abitofalark · 08/11/2022 18:04

Thanks for posting. For clarification, could you say what it is a review of? I see a reference to guidance but not what guidance.

Sorry, I managed to only copy and pasted the 2nd half of the blog Abitofalark so the OP is incomplete information. The first part of the blog was in relation to the first judicial review that was won on appeal by FWS. The guidance refers to the "revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act" which FWS are saying is still not straightforwardly using the EA's definition.

...

“The meaning of “woman” for the purposes of the Act"

"2.12 There is no definition of “woman” set out in the Act with effect from 19 April 2022 following decisions of the Court of 18 February and 22 March 2022. Therefore “woman” in the Act has the meaning under section 11 and section 212(1) of the Equality Act 2010. In addition, in terms of section 9(1) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, where a full gender recognition certificate has been issued to a person that their acquired gender is female, the person’s sex is that of a woman, and where a full gender recognition certificate has been issued to a person that their acquired gender is male, the person’s sex becomes that of a man.”

www.gov.scot/publications/gender-representation-public-boards-scotland-act-2018-statutory-guidance-2/pages/2/

The whole blog can be read here...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

OP posts:
Hoardasurass · 08/11/2022 18:21

@Abitofalark it's the guidance for the equal representation Bill.
The Bill was supposed to make all public bodies 50% men and 50% women by positively discriminating in favour of women when you have 2 equal candidates. Unfortunately scot gov decided to redefine women aa anyone who identify as 1. Fws took them 2 court over the definition and won and scot government were ordered to change the definition in the Bill. They did however they then redefined woman to include any biological male with a GRC claiming that it changes your sex under the equality act (yet at the same time says the exact opposite in Parliament when talking about the gra reform). This new redefinition of women is what the review is about

Abitofalark · 08/11/2022 18:04

Thanks for posting. For clarification, could you say what it is a review of? I see a reference to guidance but not what guidance.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/11/2022 17:23

watching this with intense interest

TheBiologyStupid · 08/11/2022 17:08

The upcoming judicial review got a mention today in the Mermaids v Charity Commission& LGB Alliance hearing, IIRC.

bitachey · 08/11/2022 16:40

Donors to Scottish Greens? I wonder. Just seems so blinkered. They were all for 12-16 to be able to legally change gender. Madness.

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