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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Arguments with daughters

116 replies

sunshinesupermum · 05/11/2022 12:46

I have two daughters, aged 37 and 41. They are both fully supportive of trans issues and I am of course, in their eyes, a TERF. I'd like help in refuting their ideas next time the subject is raised before it becomes a Brexit type issue and we stop talking to each other! Sorry if this is too long but I really appreciate some help.
Examples from yesterday's Wattsapp messages:
DD2: You probably know transwomen who are not out who see and are hurt (on Twitter) and alienated by your views.
Me: Highly doubtful I know a single transperson IRL which obv means I cannot walk in their shoes. They have all the rights the rest of us have but women are losing theirs. Women's rights come first for me every time.
DD: I haven't lost any rights and neither have you. And you have no idea who is or who is not trans. Luckily my generation and younger for the most part have progressive (views) that don't align with the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies! You don't care about women's safety. Only Cis women's safety. My rights and your rights are not being erased because of transwomen.
Me: I agree this is generally a generational issue. Incidentally, older women are concerned that men are illicitly watching girls/young women in changing rooms. Incidentally, mixed (then known as unisex) changing rooms were introduced in the late 1960s but soon fell out of favour!
DD: Laughably shortsighted to scapegoat (transwomen). Perhaps they should introduce special toilets only for transphobic cis women rather than try to segregate transwomen quietly going about their lives. You don't care about women's safety.
Me: I care about all women's safety. Unless he has his genitalia removed no male person can be a female one.
There was more of the same bilge but this is this gist.

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 05/11/2022 14:08

There was a short YouTube, I think there was a link from Glinner's Substack iirc it was called Skirts go Spinny. I could only stomach a couple of minutes of it. Get them to watch that.

Otherwise, just leave it.

senua · 05/11/2022 14:08

You are unlikely to change your opinion and neither are they.
Agree with the first, disagree with the second. This forum is full of women who say "I used to think I should #BeKind but now ... "

maddy68 · 05/11/2022 14:04

I agree with your children in the main , but some subjects are best not be discussed. You are unlikely to change your opinion and neither are they. So it's just arguing for the sake of it. And that is bound to end in tears

Francesgumm · 05/11/2022 14:01

They are older than I thought you were going to say. But on your DD suggesting having separate toilets for transphobic ‘cis’ women I’d say yes please ! If that gives me female only toilets - yep! Your DD can use the mixed sex ones if she prefers.

senua · 05/11/2022 13:56

Just drip drip drip and one day it will get through.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Meanwhile don't make it a battle. Don't back them into a corner so that they become defensive instead of open to persuasion.

FlibbertyGiblets · 05/11/2022 13:51

I wouldn't engage further.

MajesticWhine · 05/11/2022 13:49

I think for the sake of harmonious family relationships it's probably easier to let this go and agree to disagree.

Waitingfordecember · 05/11/2022 13:48

Is it worth ruining your relationship with your daughters? Just don’t talk about it.

I’m sure there were plenty of people who just avoided talking about gay people’s rights with older family members before homophobia became taboo for the majority.

roarfeckingroarr · 05/11/2022 13:47

They might care more about minorities. Ask them about some Muslim and other religious (not Christians because they're not special enough to question male feelings) minority women who are not allowed to share some spaces with male bodied people. The inclusion of men "trans women" in women's spaces means the exclusion of these women from society.

roarfeckingroarr · 05/11/2022 13:44

Sorry OP. I was hoping they would be late teens / early 20s and there would be hope of sense in a few years but at their ages I think you're fighting a losing battle

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/11/2022 13:32

How am I supposed to tell the following three classifications apart -

a man
a man who claims to be a trans woman and is lying
a man who claims to be a trans woman and is telling the truth?

Do you believe that changing sex is possible?

Why do you think a trans woman - by definition a man - should have a right to destroy women's single sex spaces and make them mixed sex, simply because of an utterly meaningless gender identity claim?

Musomama1 · 05/11/2022 13:27

They do realise that any trans inclusion argument has to mean including fetishist males, some of which even they would find a cognitive stretch to defend?

That's the inconvenient part that so many women just refuse to engage in. Also, because of this modern umbrella term of trans they are arguing for queer theory which is just a race to the bottom in terms of boundaries.

ValBiro · 05/11/2022 13:24

Saggy old bodies? Nice Hmm

Happylittlechicken · 05/11/2022 13:21

Just tel them if they keep being so rude you’re leaving all your estate to LGBA.

Baaaaaa · 05/11/2022 13:20

I would emphasise the fact that trans women going about their business are not the issue. Males are. Glinners "this never happens" article is easily Googleable and lists 115 cases where it definately never happened.

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/11/2022 12:54

Oh, tbh I wouldn't engage with them on this! The casual ageism and unpleasantness would make me back off and leave them to it.

Do you typically have such debates on WhatsApp on other topics too?