Arguments with daughters

I don't talk to my daughters about this issue. They know what I believe and they know why. I see no point at all in trying to change their minds by arguing with them. They certainly won't change my mind by arguing with me. But mine are younger - in university - and it is probably fairly essential that there is something they disagree with me on. We talk around the issue though - both were angry at the constant use of "pregnant people" when the Dobbs decision overturned Roe v Wade. So I think they will get there by themselves.

I absolutely would not accept anyone - including my daughters - calling me a cis woman. And if a child of mine used the phrase "saggy old bodies" I would be desperately disappointed that I had reared such an offensive person.

I thought they'd be teenagers but 37 and 41? Do they not remember the relatively recent times before the onslaught of genderism? How can they believe any of this is organic? Do they not think critically?

They sound very rude and for almost middle aged women themselves , they sound like teens. Are they mothers themselves?
I would leave them to think whatever they want to and not try and change their minds but equally they should not try and change yours

Saggy old bodies?

Is this for real?!

I'm 33 and not overly saggy 😉 and I am definitely in your corner. It's not about being progressive it is about being a realist

Agree.
This is horrifying.

They do realise even very elderly women are raped, right? That being the victim of a sexual predator has nothing to do with how attractive you are by Hollywood beauty standards?

That said, leave it. Today’s BekindTransSympathiser is tomorrow’s Tervern Sister. They might not care about older women but they might have a Wtf is going on moment when they realise how many ‘transboys’ there are in some UK schools (a third of the approx 150 female students in my teen’s school year have nb/tranboy identities. Only 1 of approx 150 transgirl though)

I did chuckle at threatening to leave your estate to the LGBA tho’

I got through to my teenagers with 'Do you think I should be forced to spend the night on a hospital word with an obvious male in the next bed?'

But then one of mine has serious health issues, so I think she and then others could actually relate to that.

Hmm I'm 38 so I suspect if their bodies are anything like mine they're getting rather saggy themselves!

I'd drop the toilet stuff, if you haven't experienced male violence directly then it can be tricky to see why women feel vulnerable. Are they rather sheltered?

If you're going to debate then I'd talk about the effects on children, the reasons why so many young girls think they have to identify out of being female, the issues gender ideology raises about homosexuality and the cotton ceiling.

Have they got children themselves?

Except for gay men to be able to love who they loved and go about their everyday day life impacted on no one else in any way. So -

Womens places on shortlists not taken away,
Womens places in sport not taken away,
Womens safe space in prison and away from convicted sex offenders not taken away.

It is in no way comparable to gay men and that's such a lazy argument

the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies!

woooow. if this is real, I feel very sorry for you having two 40 year old adult daughters who have the personalities of spiteful 14 year old male incels.

I'm sorry, but no one who's right in the head talks that way. if it was a 14 year old boy there might be some chance for him to become a redeemable human being - though the odds would be against it. But a 40 year old? It's beyond belief.

God they are not very pleasant about other women who might need rights are they?

I'd change the subject. It's not worth it.

Probably too late for this now but I've found the best way to manage these conversations is to talk about it in the way that I used to think. I was a be kind, mildly twaw, type of person with some concerns and questions because not everything fully added up. Because that's what the vast majority of people are. If you come at it in an argumentative manner, you're most likely to make them put up their barriers. If you just ask the questions that you used to ask yourself, you're quite likely to be asking the questions that they themselves know lead to uncomfortable answers and have occasionally gnawed at the back of their mind too. Putting it as a question and leaving them to answer you, to articulate their own thought processes is how to make people examine the sides of this that they instinctively don't want to even think about.

You can't change their views OP and you probably shouldn't try. Focus on what you can do to help support women. Have you signed the Equality Act petition over on petitions, for example?

Sorry OP, they are way too old (and possibly saggy 🙄) to be speaking to you like that. Possibly just requires a "we'll agree to disagree, let's avoid the topic, but don't ever speak to your mother like that again" type statement. And leave nothing to them in your will bar a folder filled with Stunning and Brave sex offender news stories...

So what do they say about women like me who have experienced sexual assault, either as adults or as children?

Do they think it's alright that we be forced to share spaces where we are/may be in state of undress with persons who have male genitalia??

Persons who could be getting off on the fact we would be uncomfortable, wary and even afraid of them, and like that power to discombobulate us, even if they don't actually put a hand on me, let alone if they actually do/want to?????!!

If their answer is that's fine. They are bloody naive even at the ages they are.

I think what you and your daughters idea of what a trans women looks like are very different. Why don’t you suggest swapping pictures of them with her?

I am sure she will send you images of young and convincing trans women famous on social media (and those who probably do have gender dysphoria) In reply you can send her pictures of the like of Karen black, etc. Include the reports of other men with sexual convictions who have changed sex to be housed in female prisons, and who have subsequently gone on to assault women prisoners. There are actual examples in this country and US.

Find an article on AGP. See if she will accept that there are a subset of men who are not trans women, but pretend to be to further their own fetishes. Perhaps for the sake of harmony keep off the subject of whether TWAW for the time being.

My DD made a disparaging remark about JK Rowling (Blessed be her name) the other day, but I let it go. I’m saving that conversation for a later date.

So talking about womens rights should be taboo? Really?

Agree with others this is probably something you aren't going to win on.

But I will point out I'm 43 and most the women of my age are slowly waking up to TRA and there's a fair few if us women are GC so definitely not a generational thing!

When the inevitable time comes that they have to agree with you then will be your time to gloat.

Saggy old bodies!? What, like saggy mum tums from gestating baby humans, something only women can do? I’m quite surprised your daughters are the ages they are and made this comment. It’s telling of the opinion they have of older women, which they will soon find they have become.

I'd back off and ignore them now. There's no point in even trying to debate, you have differing views. Both sides just need to accept that.

One day their bodies will be old and saggy too, hopefully their old legs won't slip on the urine sprayed in the gender neutral toilets (we got hygiene instructions at work because this was a prevalent issue!).

@Waitingfordecember or who avoided talking about womens rights, misogyny and sexism

woemns rights are not on their way to becoming a taboo like homophobia much as you might like. Soz.

TRAs are having a right crack at bringing
back repackaged homophobia though.

ugh. all those saggy middle aged lesbians wanting to exclude men. Awful business.