Arguments with daughters

"if a TW doesn't feel safe in male only spaces so uses a woman's space...where does a woman go if she doesn't feel safe in a woman's space? Why does a TW have the right to feel safe but a woman doesn't?" Would be my questions to your DD's. If they reply "well a women could use x space" then the answer is "in that case why can't TW go there rather than in a women's space?" These were the questions I asked my "TWAW" niece....the sound of the penny dropping was almost audible.

I find that the discussion seems to get derailed when it fixates on toilets and changing rooms, because for a lot of people using a cubicle next to a man or a woman isn't a big deal.

Where it becomes difficult to justify the loss of single sex spaces is in places like:

• open plan changing facilities
• prisons
• hospitals
• refuges
• rape crisis groups
• mental health facilities
• care homes
• children's residential camps
• the bedroom

Many woke men seem to fall apart when asked if they will be having sex with a trans identified male at any time soon.

Most women are not actually ok with the idea of being locked in a prison cell, toileting, showering and sleeping in full view of a trans identified male.

Most parents are not OK with their adolescent daughters sharing a cabin on a residential with a trans identified male.

Most women can understand why a woman who has been raped or beaten by a man may not want to be in a refuge or rape crisis group with a trans identified male.

If they are not 100% ok with all of the above scenarios then they do not in fact believe that TWAW.

That doesn't mean that they are transphobic, it just means that they believe that biology is meaningful and real. It also means that they understand that throughout history and the present day predatory males have taken advantage of any situation they can to infiltrate children's and women's space spaces to abuse them. Men who have become teachers, priests, have taken safeguarding positions in hospitals, children's groups, have taken custodial positions in leisure centres and mental health facilities, have trained to become nurses, doctors or dentists.

If you think that predatory males won't utter the words 'I identify as a woman' to gain access to the female changing room at a gym, when we have verified cases of men undertaking 10+years of training to become doctors so they abuse women, then frankly you're an idiot.

And that's all before you get into discussion about the massive problems with the concept of allowing or even encouraging children to have medical and surgical interventions that will fundamentally change their lives forever.

I was reading about a seemingly successful transition for a Transwoman the other day. Her parents identified when she was 3 that she wasn't a boy and supported her in socially transitioning. She started puberty blockers before puberty started, and was on female hormones at 14. At 18 just before starting college she underwent sex reassignment surgery. She passes as a woman and is beautiful.

How much of that was her choice? How as a 3 yr old did she know she was meant to be a girl. Pre-puberty had she ever had an erection or experienced an orgasm? Post hormones and surgery will she ever experience an orgasm? Was any option given for producing and storing sperm? Was she able to give informed consent at 14 to become voluntarily infertile?

We desperately need the adults to stand up, push the pause button and make some ethical decisions around gender identity care for children, that won't happen while everyone is chanting mantras that go against biological reality.

Has the OP been back at all? This thread has my spidey senses tingling, especially the bit about the 'saggy old bodies'.

Not least because if my grown up daughters ever said that about other women, apparently in an attempt to bring me round to their way of thinking, I would go fucking nuts at them!

Now that I've seen OP has a long posting history, this is really upsetting me!

You don't deserve to be spoken to in such a horrible way, OP. Ask them to read back over what they've written, and ask them are they proud of their misogyny. Tell them that even if they are proud of it they need to keep it to themselves in future.

I hope they will at least have the grace to be ashamed if you point it out to them. I"d be highly tempted to pass some remark on how you're very grateful that they've lived such sheltered lives, but it's probably better to stay firmly on the high ground, and just state your boundaries on having such disgusting misogyny shared with you. Don't engage with them on this subject in future as they are apparently incapable of discussing it like adults. Good luck, OP. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

Agree with this. That comment will come back to bite them on the saggy, old bum.

I would turn the questions back on them so they have to justify their thinking tbh.

I absolutely would not accept anyone - including my daughters - calling me a cis woman. And if a child of mine used the phrase "saggy old bodies" I would be desperately disappointed that I had reared such an offensive person

I'm sorry, your dd does not sound like she would agree with you on anything, on the principle of the thing. So let it go.

My dd doesn't like me talking about the things that interest me so I let it go. Next thing she is telling about the latest PP video.

Honestly they sound like brats. I’d never talk to my mother like that and’s I’m not much older than your eldest!!

If I was trying to engage (and as PP said I’m not sure uts wise), I’d talk about detransioners and trans people who, despite being trans, actually also believe you can’t change your sex and they’ll never be a man/a woman.
Twitter is great to be able to see those other views of what being transgender means for transgender people.

Basically you can support transpeople AND believe in sex. Quite a few trans people are starting to come out saying that TRA don’t reflect their pov. And it’s important to respect ALL pov (as in theirs, not yours - if you start making it about your pov, you’ll loose anyway)

I’d also expect an apology for the disgusting offensive “saggy old bodies” comment. Repulsive. It’s always telling when the #bekind mask slips and you see the rampant misogyny on which this ideology is actually based

Do your daughters have children themselves?

I had a look at some of the OP's other posts (worried that this was her first post on this board) and she has two grandsons. So might explain why the DD isn't concerned.

I prefer to keep it simple. Humans can't change sex. Men can't be women. If your daughters want to pretend that men are women, that's up to them, but they can't reasonably expect other women to do the same.

I’d do what @Wanderingowl suggests (in person though - discussions like this over WhatsApp, email etc tend not to end well!) I’d also be tempted to point out their ageism, internalised misogyny and raging hypocrisy. They sound like very naive teenagers, not middle-aged women!

Your daughters sound like twats tbh. The way they speak is disgusting. I wouldn't even engage with them.

That "saggy bodies" comment is repulsive. What a revolting sneer to make to any woman, never mind their own mother. They might as well be teenage incels with that attitude and their complacency over womens safety and right to privacy.

I'm afraid my experience is that people like that are just not worth engaging with. They simply dig in. If (big if) they come to you later with a change of mind, or at least, a questioning mind, then fine, but for now i'd simply refuse to speak to them about it, at all. Keep communication going on everything but this issue, if you can. After that shitty comment though, I'd be taking a bit of a break from them, personally.

To add : just reminded by another thread - Katie Dolatowski. The kind of case that the #bekind claims never happens, and if it does it’s completely isolated.

Your post reads as if you are looking forward to the argument. They dig graves 6 feet deep. How far into the grave do you want to take it?

this is excellent advice, if you are going to have those conversations
most of started out with 'be kind' and slowly moved to 'hang on a minute...'
also, they need to save face don't they, and arguing doesn't allow this

😂🤣

Do your daughters have children themselves?

The comment on 'saggy bodies' is hateful. How can they accuse you of not caring about 'all women' when they talk to you like this? They don't seem to care about your feelings. Nice touch to oh-so-subtly imply that you'll die soon, being of the 'old guard'.

Is Eddie Izzard a woman to them? And isn't it much more cruel to lie to someone about how they are perceived rather than say the truth?

The TRA ship is sinking. They can either acknowledge that and reflect a bit on the nonsense they've signed up to, or they can egg each other on, indulge in a bit more moral panic and blame their poor old mum for all the terrible transphobia in this horrid world. Seems to me a mature person would choose the first option but hey ho. I'm in the same age cohort and feel vaguely embarrassed on their behalf.

I'd ostentatiously spend all their inheritance on artisanal gin.

Your dds' views seem much younger - they have drunk the coolaid and aren't questioning one bit of it.

My dd is in her early 20s and she and I have very different views on this topic. We have agreed not to discuss it. But she has never been so casually ageist when we did used to speak about.

I thought your daughters were going to be teens/20s. I wouldn’t engage with their sexist/ageist rants. They sound too far down the rabbit hole.

If you do want to present something for them to think about:
The Cass report;
Current investigation into Mermaids by the Charity Commission;
Current revised NHS guidelines that are at consultation stage, including the advice that trans for most children/teens is a phase, and not to rush to affirm/medicalise;
Eddie Izzard: 60 year old male who previously claimed to be a heterosexual male transvestite, now claiming to alternate between girl and boy mode, and openly using womens toilets at public events;
Whistleblowers from the Tavistock clinic;
Recent case of female solicitor who had an operation cancelled at a private hospital because she’d requested female only after care;
Male prisoners identifying as women, moved to women’s prisons with often horrific results. A huge number of terrible cases have been recorded in the US.

There’s a thread on here called something like “Things that never happen…..” which details how men in womens spaces have adversely affected womens lives.

Subscribe (free) to Graham Linehan. Daily information about how womens rights are being threatened by trans ideology.

Maybe JK Rowling’s essay explaining her original foray into the apparent erasure of the word women. Not a transphobic word in it.

Maya Forstarter. As a result of her legal challenge to her employers, being gender critical is now a protected characteristic in the Equality Act.

Julie Bindel is also amazing on the whole trans/womens rights issue.

If you want to engage one last time I would select some of the above in written form. Give it to them and say this is why I believe the trans ideology is a threat to the hard won rights of biological women, who had to fight for those rights due to their sex based oppression.I would then refuse to discuss it. Every time they bring it up say I’ve shown you why I feel as I do, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I really feel for you. It’s almost cult like.

Not to mention my lesbian friends who have been verbally and in one case, so severely physically attacked for refusing to date a man dressed as a woman that she was hospitalised for a month, are also TERFs.

I’m 36 and a TERF.

What I’ve noticed about my peers is that the ones who are like me have experienced DV/rape/etc and ferociously protect women only spaces due to this.

The others are privileged, have had no traumatic life events and float around on a cloud of fucking ignorance.