How many transwomen/trans girls detransition?

And I say paltry because trans healthcare is pretty cheap. People using private providers in the UK are paying about £40 a month for hormones. You won't get much therapy for that which is the often suggested alternative.

£40 a month for Testogel. Plus £30 a month for a Gender GP subscription, plus £60 every 6 months for a ‘catch up’ session’, plus £195 set up fee and £65 info gathering session.

Plus another £70 a month for a nasal spray GnRHa (synarel) if the hormone alone stop periods.

plus £8,000 for private mastectomy and what £90,000 for private phalloplasty (3 or 4 staged ops) plus multiple revisions for the many complications.

Hornone use will be far longer term than therapy and therapy has no side effects (no vaginal atrophy, no dangerously increased red blood cell count, no additional risk of heart disease).

Over the long term, therapy is definitely the budget friendly option.

@GivenitupGerty

I do so hope all goes well for you both, and that the rest of her life is calm and pleasant

Sorry to be a pedant aka historically accurate, but Galileo was not threatened with execution for stating the earth revolved around the sun. He was told to say that he thought it was a proposition worth examining ( which several Cardinals were actively encouraging) but not to state it as a fact until proven. The technology to do this did not exist until after his death .

I suppose it is fairer to say that Galileo was more like the TRA in that he insisted on sating as a fact something which was a hypothesis, even though he was ultimately correct : something which one must doubt will happen in this debate.

Adding to that:

The OP only asked about 'transwomen' and 'trans girls'. It is a bit of a feature not a flaw that the people that seem to keep their penises do tend to be the older males who declare that they are now women.

Whereas the younger girls, actual girls, that are trying to escape the horrorshow that is male attention/porn are the ones that are giving up most for this ideology - by having breasts removed [in the USA from age 13 up], by taking testosterone that has effects ranging from deeper voices, receding hairline and early onset menopause resulting in severe osteoporosis which is already showing as female having to walk with walking sticks in their 20s.

Pretending that detransitioners don't exist by flinging non-existent or flawed studies at you in the pretence of 'science', is key to pretending that this is somehow ethical.

There is nothing ethical about childrens hospitals advertising how to access mastectomies for girls in their early teens. Calling it 'top surgery' is another way of misrepresenting what they are actually doing.

For all the squirrels on this thread the facts are these:

1. we don’t know true detransition rates and anyone who claims they do is lying or has an agenda
2. detransition rates are difficult to compare over different cohorts decades apart because large numbers of children being placed on puberty blockers with different demographics is a new phenomenon
3. without true numbers, doctors prescribing puberty blockers need to either a) fully inform the children and their parents that it is an unknown so they are properly informed or b) pretend it doesn’t matter and practise poor medicine. Clearly a) is what should happen but the reality is that b) is what is happening.

News just in: Major health care endores treatments that make them huge profits.

I don't think it's a bad thing to remember that profit may be a factor particularly within privatised healthcare systems. But I find it very difficult to believe that those who serve on the committees of the major healthcare organisations are so venal that they are endorsing something they secretly suspect could be causing children harm just for money. That's a deeply cynical view of healthcare professionals and not one I think is accurate. I think people have to accept that these are people who have read the evidence, are familiar with the clinical practice and outcomes and who don't share your views, not that they are all profit hungry sharks sacrificing children for pretty paltry rewards in the context of the cost of healthcare.

And I say paltry because trans healthcare is pretty cheap. People using private providers in the UK are paying about £40 a month for hormones. You won't get much therapy for that which is the often suggested alternative. If drug companies really wanted to sell more hormones they'd be far better off pushing HRT and the contraceptive pill given the very small number of trans people.

there are plenty of happy trans adults about now who had this treatment in their youth.

Are there? If there's no robust follow-up research all you have are individual anecdotes.

And even then, the fact that those people don't regret their choice is not evidence that they would have regetted not transitioning. After all, we know the majority of those who don't start a medical pathway do get reconciled with their birth sex, and I'm sure we'd all agree that whatever ones beliefs about gender, to live happily without drastic surgery and life long artificial cross sex hormones is better than being a life-long patient. (Well, all of us who aren't making money from the treatments at least!)

Furthermore, the numbers of kids on these treatments has exploded and the type of person and expectations is changing too. I don't think the outcomes of the handful of people who had the treatment long ago enough to be living a happy trans adulthood now are going to be representative of the future outcomes for the cohort who started equivalent treatment in the last 5 to 10 years, whose long term adult outcomes are as yet unknown.

News just in: Major health care endores treatments that make them huge profits.

Placing men in women’s prisons, in contravention of international human rights laws, is absolutely irrational.

So are you saying the people behind these policies have unsound minds?

Well livyposts I don't know if they are of unsound minds but some were very dubious characters ,like Gordon Pike one of the advocates for the change in policy for Scottish Prisons. I believe he is still doing time for possession of hundreds of images of children being sexually abused.

You brought it up. Glad you acknowledge it's got "not much"...actually nothing at all...to do with the subject.

Whatever ones beliefs about gender, the, lack of solid research on detransitioing is concerning and suggests trans people are not getting the best informed care.

I'm not going to apologise for pointing out ableist language. However back on point the research is happening and so far it is looking promising. This is how medicine works and don't forget these clinicians are seeing these kids every day and there are plenty of happy trans adults about now who had this treatment in their youth. Pretty much every major healthcare body endorses it and there is as yet no evidence of high rates of either detransition or regret. I strongly suspect any further research, plus the results of the Cass follow ups, will further support this treatment being used carefully and with a very small number of patients as it is now.

"It came up"

You brought it up. Glad you acknowledge it's got "not much"...actually nothing at all...to do with the subject.

Whatever ones beliefs about gender, the, lack of solid research on detransitioing is concerning and suggests trans people are not getting the best informed care.

Let's not distracted on stuff that's got "not much" relevance.

People with disabilities are going to be upset because some say that putting rapists into female prisons is not rational?

Might I suggest that many people with disabilities totally agree this is an irrational thing to do and don't want rapists in female prisons, lest they get upset and to suggest they will get upset about this is itself totally irrational, mad and insane.

Not much but it came up so it got discussed.

If only puberty blockers were "proscribed". I think we'd all be happy with that.

OOOOh look, a squirrel!

What exactly does policing one woman's use of an extremely common colloquialism have to do with the lack of solid research on trans desistance?

For those interested there's quite a good and short summary of the problems with this kind of language here: hbr.org/2020/12/why-you-need-to-stop-using-these-words-and-phrases

unusual psychological event occurring at a societal level

What does this even mean? We could all claim things we don't like in society are a result of an unusual psychological event happening at societal level. It's silly and lazy and stigmatising.

Merriam-Webster’s number one definition of “Sane” is “proceeding from a sound mind: Rational.

Placing men in women’s prisons, in contravention of international human rights laws, is absolutely irrational.

So are you saying the people behind these policies have unsound minds? That they have some kind of cognitive problem that makes them do bad things because that's what people with cognitive problems do? It's a deeply ableist connotation despite it being very common language in gender critical circles - when will this madness end etc. And you may not care but a lot of disabled people do, especially those with a mental health condition who often find language like this stigmatising and offensive.

Merriam-Webster’s number one definition of “Sane” is “proceeding from a sound mind: Rational.

Placing men in women’s prisons, in contravention of international human rights laws, is absolutely irrational.

The implication is that there is some kind of unusual psychological event occurring at a societal level that is increasing the access of predatory males to women, not a suggestion that those with mental health problems are more likely to be predatory. It’s only you that have suggested this is somehow about individuals.

Surely there comes a point when a word has 2 meanings. "Insane" and "mad" have been used in this informal way by a great many people for a very long time. Trying to expunge these words from the dictionary and from everyday use is a pretty Big Brother thing to be doing.

I genuinely don't care about ableist language. Or pronouns. I care about women at risk of rape.

You are still using insanity as a pejorative, that is ableist and only contributes to the stigma towards mental health. In fact in relies on that stigma for it's rhetorical power.

I know someone (more a friend of a friend) who used to be a therapist at the Tavistock. we had a few quite long conversations about his work quite a few years ago, at the time we were drinking together quite often. i knew less than nothing about all this at the time, e.g. equating both M2F and F2M transition with 'full' surgery, assuming that all patients inevitably went through it sooner rather than later, which we now of course know isn't true at all. so when I once had with him a conversation about regret/about detransitioning, we were at least partly talking at cross-purposes, with me assuming that treatment was probably rather less reversable than it really is. anyway, at the time my observation was that they knew or at least thought they knew that regret was relatively uncommon, but that they didn't really have a strong handle on just how uncommon - it just didn't really seem to fall within their remit, if that makes sense.

No, it implies that it would be a insane world to be an accepted outcome, particularly by bosses of prisons who know it is going to happen by letting rapists into female prisons. Putting rapists into female prisons is not the action of a person who is rational.

I'll let Dr Hilary Cass know that a study quoted in her interim report about the Tavistock is 'alarmist', you know, that report that says the Tavistock is unsafe for children, that is being shut down.

Because a random TRA on mumsnet said so.