The police

Waitwhat23
Not sure why they did that and not stop & talk to her initially - unless they were looking beyond her - were they waiting for someone else coming and she happened to be there. We sometimes 'lie in wait' for say a burglar to try and push them back towards another unit. Not sure unless I can read the posts or find out what they were actually doing at the time. Perhaps they were safeguarding to protect her (lone female walking), but didn't want to stop her in case that made her more nervous in light of the Everard case.

ancientgran
CID is more or less a prisoner handling team now with long hours. Good if your single but no good if you're in a relationship or have children. Start at 0700, job come in a 1700 hours so you are kept on. Finally get the job to a conclusion at 0200 hours - go home and back in for 0700 again. Not ideal.

Response teams are more popular - go to the initial jobs, find the victims, safeguard them, arrest the suspects, create the crime scene & seize the evidence then hand it over to CID - ready for the next emergency.

VestofAbsurdity
But you had no idea that he was going to do this when he started
Presumably if he was asked in his job interview "Do you intend to murder you wife in the future?" he would have said "No"

I'm interested though that you see it as another erosion of trust - someone who has not been found guilty of anything yet.

You would agree with me then that nurse Letby can be seen in the same light - despite other posters on here saying I can not use Letby as an example of a 'bad nurse' as she has not been found guilty of anything.

Strange how you can use it as an example of mistrust in the police, but not for nursing...?

Schools have robust safeguarding policies though and external regular investigations. Safeguarding fails by schools have resulted in changes in policy and system overhaul. Dunblane. Ian Huntley. No they are not perfect but they don't hand waive away serious breeches like the abuse of power to murder citizens as 'one bad apple''.

The police close ranks. Make excuses. Say not all police officers. Insist lessons will be learned and change nothing. That's the difference.

I mean personally, from your attitude I don't think you can be part of the solution so I'd rather someone else who listens was in your position of power. Sorry. Do better.

VestofAbsurdity
So whats your point here - he shouldn't have been hired for something he might do in the future?

Well he shouldn't have been hired should he? He shouldn't have been placed in that position of power like Wayne Couzens shouldn't have.

Are you saying he is another example of why we shouldn't trust the police?

Of course it is another example of the erosion of trust in the Police coming on the back of Wayne Couzens.

The public are right to question what kind of people are currently being recruited into the Police.

I am in agreement with you on the point you make about Police Officers breaking the law, any law, being summarily dismissed. The Police should be held to higher standards than the rest of the public, that should go without saying you cannot have law breakers enforcing the law it's that simple otherwise it's one rule for them and one rule for the rest.

We know police numbers have dropped since the Conservatives came to power 12 years ago and that Johnson, when PM, said this would change. Has the "rush" to make up the 20,000 missing officers resulted in a lowering of standards?

I don't know what recruitment is like but I have heard that officers aren't interested in the CID now whereas when I worked for the police, over 20 years ago, an ambition to get into the CID was very common. Has the police career become a hard job to "sell" to young people? If it has what will that mean going forward, numbers dropping or standards dropping?

There was a good example recently of where the Police should start to listen.

A poster on here said she had been dog walking late at night and a Police car had driven past her (in a quiet rural area iirc) 4 or 5 times, slowing to a crawl as they went past her without engaging or stopping to speak to her. Another poster (I can't remember who but was something to do with the Police) simply wouldn't acknowledge that this behaviour might frighten this woman (particularly given the recent revelations about appalling Police behaviour and a misogynistic culture which seems to be prevalent across the country). Just wouldn't listen to that poster or many others that no matter if the Police had no nefarious intentions at all, they simply hadn't considered that this behaviour (particularly in the current climate of distrust of the Police) would frighten women and continued to compound this by insisting the poster was ridiculous for being frightened. If this kind of attitude is wide spread and applicable to other situations, It's hardly surprising that women find it difficult to trust the Police.

And no, I don't expect you to quit and haven't said you personally are a 'bad apple'. The Police Force as an entity are the barrel being spoiled by the bad apples. Public trust is low in the entity because of those bad apples.

The Police as an entity seem to be doing very little to change that.

Chersfrozenface
Yes & yes - but to be honest on our shift (and the adjoining shifts) I don't hear it.

Our whatsap group mainly concerns if we have enough milk, or my car won't start, can you pick me up for work.

Most of the things we talk about are either concerned with jobs we are dealing with and what the best course of action, what promises the management team have let us down on again, how their particular sports team or training went etc etc. Other than that, your single crewed and out on the next job.

TenPointsFromHufflepuff
I've dealt with quite a few teachers for things who have kept their jobs - so teaching i would guess is not taking these things seriously. Including safeguarding of children with mental health issues who are just allowed to walk out of school suicidal as the school can't cope with them. "Allow then to walk out of school premises and phone the police, then its their problem to deal with."

Teachers claiming that a 10 year old is so violent they can't cope with him in school - despite them having specific plans in place for such children and how to deal with them. Parents fully on board to help the school if required - but instead, easier to phone the police on 999 rather than waiting for the parents to arrive from work.

And i do accept criticism of the force so long as its fair & proportional. But i won't accept that the 'whole barrel is rotten' scenario which posters on here are eluding to.

So, @Felix125 and @stillvicarinatutu when you hear or see misogynistic behaviour or comments from other officers, do you pull them up on it? Do all "good cops" pull up their fellow officers on such behaviour or comments?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to remain silent." Edmund Burke

ArabellaScott
I do listen

But where do we start to listen

Simplified example:

If Mrs Smith phones in and makes a compliant of harassment which on the phone sounds horrendous. She has letters posted through her door (for argument sake) which are abusive & threatening and signed Mrs Jones - a neighbour who has been abusive to her in the past and they hate each other. Do we listen to Mrs Smith?

Yes, of course we do. They are the first point of contact and unless there is significant evidence to say it hasn't happened, they must be believed.

But what if you go and see Mrs Jones about it and they refuse to speak to police as they don't see that they have done anything wrong and deny any allegation - where do we go from there?

Go back and see Mrs Smith and say there is nothing we can do because Mrs Jones wont talk to us - Mrs Smith complains that the police have done nothing to help her and have ignored her crime report. Post on MN appears from Mrs Smith about how useless police are

Or

Pursue Mrs Jones and if necessary (and if you have the powers to do so), look at arresting her if she is refusing to cooperate. She admits the offence or you find evidence which supports Mrs Smith's account. Mrs Jones charged. Mrs Jones later complains that the police should not be getting involved in 'thought policing' and 'woke' issues. Post on MN appears from Mrs Jones about how useless police are.

Or you arrest Mrs Jones, but she denies any offence (or goes no reply) and you find no evidence to support Mrs Smith's account. Post on MN appears from Mrs Jones & Mrs Smith about how useless police are.

So which civilian would be correct here if they both complian....?

I've been a victim twice and had to deal with the police.
Both times they did a darvo and blamed me for the attack/event.
So no, I don't think it's 'one bad apple'' or force when I was victim blamed by two separate male officers in two separate counties.
Yes I'm sure there are good ones, I'm related to one, but like good men I am pretty sure they don't have to go around saying "I'm a nice guy police officer. That they can't accept criticism of the force not individual criticism is a massive red flag.
And it's been statistically proven that violent and predatory people are attracted to roles with power such as policing and teaching. Why does only one of these professions take it seriously and the other washes it's hands and says napalt??

AlisonDonut & Charley50
You two are a virtual showcase of what we are talking about.
By challenging senior management whenever I get the chance
By thinking that our forces's policy of no signs, rainbow lanyards, charity pins etc is a good thing.
By answering emergencies first and not the 'woke' type jobs which slide down the queue - is a good stance for our force.

You need to explain what it is you are talking about here?
What would you prefer to happen?

TenPointsFromHufflepuff
I agree - how many were 'rooted out', convicted over this.
Great - get rid of them straight away - but how many as a percentage of the police force does this represent?

As stillvicarinatutu has said - Most murderers aren't cops . They work normal jobs and are normal people in society.

Most DV suspects work in normal jobs too. The guy that I mentioned earlier sending his partner a greeting on Facebook worked in a normal job. They get to keep their jobs even after convictions for DV offences and he never got a mention in any paper.

TenPointsFromHufflepuff
So how does this make me an enabler....?

Waitwhat23
'one bad apple spoils the whole barrel'
I agree, that's why I endorse the ones that have been gotten rid of.
That's why I said anyone with any convictions or offences against their name should not be accepted.
That's why I hold any senior manager of any rank to account when things are not going right or promises they have made are not being implemented and effecting how we police & respond to emergencies (promises of more vehicles, bureaucracy with case files etc etc .

But that should be the same in other jobs shouldn't it?

So my DV guy that I mentioned earlier sending his partner a greeting on Facebook- should have lost his job shouldn't he? One bad apple, so all his workmates become DV perpetrators

The delivery guy in a white van doing 35 in a 30 should loose his job shouldn't he - he's supposed to be a professional driver? One bad apple, so all his workmates don't drive to the rules anymore.

And how are you defining me as a 'bad apple' exactly?
I have not murdered anyone, assaulted anyone, no speeding tickets, no parking tickets - nothing. Do you want me to resign from the force immediately?

I know that the police deal with the worst of society, I know that many if not most police are good people, I have friends who are police. I also appreciate police taking time to explain points of policing to us on here.

I'd say there is a major issue with public relationship with police right now - especially when it comes to women. The major thing that needs to happen in order for trust to be rebuilt is for the police to listen, and not presume that in every case, it's the police who are in the right and the civilians who are incorrect.

When I say 'police', I don't mean any particular posters on this board, I mean the institution as a whole, of course. There has to be a change in culture, if the police want to continue to police by consent, and to improve their ability to protect people.

Particularly as (as someone pointed out on another thread) the actual proverb is 'one bad apple spoils the whole barrel'

My jaw dropped at the high fiving in particular. Tone deaf doesn't even begin to cover it.

Exactly!

@stillvicarinatutu - attempted murder of a women (his partner?) isn't 'fucking-up'!!

Of course there are good police. But the culture is rotten: what is acceptable in terms of sick and abusive messages between some police officers has shown that. Police aren't policing each other's bad attitudes.

I heard a programme on radio 4 about misogyny towards female police officers. So many incidents ignored by management and female police officers lives made difficult for complaining.

Only anecdotal but my mum worked in a health clinic near the police training college back in the 80s. She told me there was a problem with DV in the force back then.

I can't believe the tone deafness of all this 'only one bad apple' we are the good guys crap after all that came out in the Wayne Cousins case.

Fucking enablers.

You two are a virtual showcase of what we are talking about.

Felix - we keep fighting the good fight .

All we can do mate .
High five . (There's mo emoji ) 😂

I like you already Felix ! Management do t like me much these days for the same reason !

Yep . That's shit . Police officers are part of the general population and they do fuck up . Probably less % wise than the general population but yeah - I've worked with some right fucking dicks before now . They get weeded out one way or another.
It's newsworthy because it's a cop

Most murderers aren't . They work normal jobs and are normal people in society. No recruitment drive is absolutely fail safe 100% . I think if you looked at 100 murders most suspects would be working perfectly normal jobs .

Same here - I tend to be the shift mouth piece when senior management turn up to a briefing to say 'how well everything is going'.......... 'does anyone have any questions?'

'Yes... several' - I reply

I'm always in bother . I've been banned from call handling 😂

I tend to speak my mind .

Glad to hear that Felix . Sanity clearly does prevail in some of our forces !

And you know what .

I'm currently fighting a disability discrimination case at work .

I'm not a fan of management.

But please be assured most of the cops on the ground do y subscribe to this absolute bollocks .

I think Felix is pretty much of the same mindset as me . Yeah Felix is a bloke but cops pretty much feel the same . I'm a woman . I've had to look on Google for definitions of a cis woman .

Me - I'm a woman . Born one . Still one . Do not believe anyone can "change " sex .

I have before now said I could roll in breadcrumbs and call myself a fishfinger but it doesn't change the sex I was born into .

I agree with single sex spaces and I will fight for my rights as a woman .

It doesn't seem to have penetrated my job yet . No stonewall training, no mermaids , no rainbow lanyard, no Macarena.

Not in my force yet . I took part in a focus group 3 weeks ago . I put forward that the police are being politicised and we all agreed that was wrong .

The police aren't the enemy . The ideology some forces are taking is .

same here with us