Response from health care service providers "assigned at birth"

Yes. It’s obvious you’re being asked to tick off M or F, with or without the verb.

I didn’t assume, you said “English language difficulties” so that can’t include people with cognitive difficulties with language in general because they would have these difficulties with any/all language. Ergo, you were talking about non-native English speakers. If you had meant “language difficulties”, then you would not have tacked on the specifier “English”.

The verb can be confusing and disrupt the message being communicated.
Not likely that keeping an original verb that has been used in this context for decades when every alternate verb suggested for use is a synonym of the original verb but also has the disadvantage of being new and unfamiliar in this context, which will create confusion and a learning curve. Change causes confusion.

But hey, it’s up to OP if she wants to spin her wheels harassing NHS staff over a superfluous verb in a stock question on a stock form that they have no control over and pretty much anyone reading it would realise oh, this is where I check off my sex at birth.

To me, it’s a waste of NHS resources to pursue this. Much rather they be using the time to call patients about cancer test results than doing the formal complaints process over something that is a mole hill of an issue.

And strangely the words for male or female cover the most people on the planet.

And you are assuming I was taking about ‘foreigners’ only? By the way, I am also a foreigner.

Anyway, a choice of two words, easily understood by the largest % of the population without obfuscation. Or, use additive language.

Cant beat that for inclusive!

And you cannot beat that for communication targeting.

Sometimes that zeal to appear inclusive by removing the words needed to achieve the highest level of communication is dangerous.

The verb can be confusing and disrupt the message being communicated. That is probably one of the first things a communications student should learn.

Using ‘assigned at birth’ means that any person who has English language difficulties may not understand an important medical message.
There is no need to use this ambiguous term. It is dangerous to do so.

OMG “assigned” is sooooo vague compared to “observed” or “identified”
How will people ever learn this mysterious word if English isn’t their first language? They could actually die from this! They don’t have a chance in hell of comprehending that “sex — ?— at birth” is asking for what sex they are! The verb we use is absolutely essential?

Seriously though it’s really dishonest to wrap your anti-trans conspiracy theory in a strawman of claiming that “assigned” isn’t a common word and is too vague for foreigners to understand a simple question…which could be understood by just being able to comprehend: sex at birth.

The verb is completely superfluous to comprehension in this context.

Men can have vaginas and a successful pregancy

But they can't produce eggs. That's the key defining feature of a female. Maybe acknowledge that next time you wheel out that example.

Anyway it's been interesting but I'm off to bed. Men can have vaginas and a successful pregancy according to musnetters, who'd have thought it lol.

Why, some posters were adament that intersex women with vaginas, or men as they see them, should use male spaces only in case they make a 'real' woman feel a bit uncomfortable.

Talking of babies, here's a 'man' according to some who had a successful pregnancy using a donated egg

While that's obviously a highly unusual outcome of a DSD, I'm not sure what you think it proves.

This individual did not have the capability to produce eggs. Which is the key defining characteristic of the female species. Large gametes or small gametes. No one produces both. No one produces something else.

And further usage of a person’s medical condition as a gotcha.

You really are on a roll livvy.

Oh. Hang on. Is livvy thinking that maybe there is a test that combines sexual arousal and gender identity validation.

Well. Wouldn’t that be something ?

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care

wee bit of a daft assumption there

0.018% of people in the world have a difference of sex development. Of these, nearly every one of them will have had testing to know their sex using modern techniques.

Some intersex conditions don't get diagnosed until puberty and even with babies they don't use medical tests exclusively to determine legal sex.

Talking of babies, here's a 'man' according to some who had a successful pregnancy using a donated egg: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5885995/

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care.

Caster Semenya does not have a vagina. HTH.

Sure discovereads

You have obviously read the posts leading up to that.

Do you believe there is a predictive ‘gender’ test? That is why livvy introduced this line of discussion, after all.

You are the one trying to use sexuality and gender identity as comparators here livvy.

Not me.

You do not have one shred of evidence for a predicted gender test or criteria, yet have doubled down on insisting that is how doctors work out the sex of a child with a difference of sex development.

Yet you used this as a distraction from your lack of evidence.

@Helleofabore

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.
The “test” involves watching porn and then checking off on from 1 to 10 how aroused you feel. But it only works if porn videos turn you on. So obviously the “test” fails for many men and most women. Also, they found that for some people any porn arouses them- it doesn’t have to involve partners coinciding with their sexuality- so you get false positives for bisexuality. 😑

I say “test” because it was never an official test btw, it was a psychology experiment.

A dishonest post.

I think anyone following the progression on the use of that term understands it is used for trans people.

And I have given a very important reason why it is incorrect to use it for medical communications. I believe you didn’t answer that.

But I will repeat it for readers joining in now.

Additive language is a useful solution, where the word male or female are also used.

Using ‘assigned at birth’ means that any person who has English language difficulties may not understand an important medical message.

Even worse, a person who incorrectly had a sex ‘assigned at birth’ will also be getting unclear or incorrect medical information.

This could mean life changing or shortening health risks.

0.018% of people in the world have a difference of sex development. Of these, nearly every one of them will have had testing to know their sex using modern techniques.

There is no need to use this ambiguous term. It is dangerous to do so.

That's all gay and lesbian sexuality is about is it

thats what you just said

no-one else said that

helle just said sexuality….she didn’t specify whose

That's all gay and lesbian sexuality is about is it, sexual arousal, not love and attraction? You know there are lots of straight people who are aroused by same sex activity but don't consider themselves gay and would never have a same sex relationship don't you? It's one of the reasons sexual health charities often use the term men who have sex with men and not gay.

And how many LGB people have taken these tests? The only one who seems to still be using them is gender critical icon Ray Blanchard and he's busy showing paedophiles pictures of naked children and measuring their erections these days.

Ask the op, they're the ones that started a thread complaining about a health provider using Intersex inclusive language

Pretty sure you're the one who ran with it as having strong relevance to the debate. Yet like I say, DSDs arent even slightly over represented among TP.

I'm certainly not giving you an example of an individual saying it.

You didn't need to include any identifying info, but ...

Convenient 😂

Nope. I have also seen academics releasing studies use DSD or VSD.

Either way. STOP politicising their bodies for your own purposes.

If so many individuals find the term DSD objectionable, surely you can give us an example of them expressing that?

I'm certainly not giving you an example of an individual saying it. I've seen what happens to people on social media when their handles get posted on this forum.

I'm always baffled why those with DSD are even brought into the debate (other than for the purposes of obfuscation, clearly).

Ask the op, they're the ones that started a thread complaining about a health provider using Intersex inclusive language.

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.

You are using some tired old trope tonight.

I'm always baffled why those with DSD are even brought into the debate (other than for the purposes of obfuscation, clearly).

They're not even slightly over represented in the trans identified (or that's my understanding).

The vast, vast majority of Transpeople are totally unambiguous in terms of the sex they were born as.

And of course I am taking about politicizing people’s bodies. Not that Semenya is in any way repulsive.