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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Has Keir reached the summit?

57 replies

CantSleepCountingSheep · 03/11/2022 07:04

https://twitter.com/WhatTheTrans/status/1587452628912508935?s=20&t=8vr_h8eXM4YaIKzjk-i0Ug

Could this be a turning point for Labour?

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wesayno · 03/11/2022 23:11

Faffertea · 03/11/2022 07:46

It’ll be interesting to see if TRAs turn on him for this and if they do whether that opens his eyes (or perhaps rather makes him confront what his eyes have already seen) to what happens if you dare dissent at all.

We all no there is no compromise. It’s total capitulation or be treated as a heretic.

Perhaps more broom cupboard begging a la Sturgeon.

MangyInseam · 03/11/2022 22:14

Sausagenbacon · 03/11/2022 09:39

I respect how you feel mangy, but do you really think he's coming to some kind of realisation on this? I think I would be MORE worried if I felt that, as it would presume that he, and the LP, are utterly out of touch.

I'm unsure as to where he stands with his comprehension of the - I giess deep theoretical elements, including how those will play out in fact.

But he does seem to have suddenly realized that he can't totally ignore it in hopes that the opposition will melt away over time. That certain issues, like parental rights, are not things people will become less concerned about. Maybe that there were real issues on the medical side.

I do think they are utterly out of touch. Maybe for a long time.

Abhannmor · 03/11/2022 16:12

It would be interesting - not to say amusing- if Starmer faced calls to have the whip removed a la Duffield.

I wonder where Cooper and Burnham stand on the issue, I mean their real views. Either strikes me as a better leader. Not a left/right thing ; Stella Creasy is full on TRA and is on the right of Labour eg. So yeah , bring on the screeching denunciation from OJ , Zoe Williams et al. Let's see what the great barrister is made of.

nilsmousehammer · 03/11/2022 15:09

Floisme · 03/11/2022 10:29

Waiting until when though? Until after the next election? Me, I will wait until I've seen their next manifesto and not a second longer.

As for these secret agents and their highly sensitive talks - well I find cynicism an unattractive quality and I don't want to be that person so I will try and keep my thoughts on that to myself, although it'll probably mean I'll have to leave the thread.

Oh years. It's not going to happen any time soon, but I take a grim satisfaction in watching the eyes of politicians gradually being opened to what we've been trying to tell them for years.

In the meantime, seahorses nailed it for me.

GloomyDarkness · 03/11/2022 12:30

Alltheprettyseahorses pretty much summed up my views.

Many people do seem to keep projecting their wants onto Labour with little evidence or ignoring active evidence they wont be doing that.

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 12:29

"A child's right to determine their future ". This hyperbolic bullshit is what is tying everyone in knots. A child CANNOT consent to a lifetime of medicalisation, non-functioning sex organs and sterility.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 03/11/2022 12:27

"biological women", "parental consent", "safe spaces". You couldn't get more anti trans dogwhistles in there if you tried.

says it all, doesn’t it? I can’t even parody that comment. I hope TRAs write lots of angry letters to Starmer complaining about biological women, parental consent and safe spaces. In case he’s in any doubt about what he’s dealing with.

ArabellaScott · 03/11/2022 12:21

ArabellaScott · 03/11/2022 12:11

twitter.com/ECTScotland/status/1587737257116581888

'The rejection of children's rights to determine their own futures has dangerous ramifications beyond LGBT+ issues.'
'For example it could involve rejecting the premise of the original Gillick decision - giving parental right to bar teenage children from being able to access contraception.'

I appreciate this is just some random Twitter account (end conversion therapy Scotland), but it has been retweeted by Patrick Harvie.

Politicians listen to this nonsense, and support it uncritically.

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 12:17

He needs to be asked to confirm selfID or not? Rather than the woolly "reform GRA" which is how Sturgeon's lot claim they have a mandate for their self ID bollocks.

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 12:15

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roarfeckingroarr · 03/11/2022 12:14

He's still talking about reforming legislation in support of "trans rights" - which to me sounds like self ID / changes to GRA requirements

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 12:14

@ArabellaScott , yes, you are right. That is an observed female at birth adult not an AGP

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 12:13

Their idea of discussion is cornering people who haven't really thought about this before, blast them with Be Kind and This IS Just Like Section 28 and make sure they understand that question ls are bigotry.
Those days are gone. No Debate is Over. And they are giving the Tories one thing they can fight them with. Labour needs an overwhelming level of new support to form a government at the next election. This may well be the thing that keeps enough people away from them.
Open Goal for the Tories if he doesn't get a grip.

ArabellaScott · 03/11/2022 12:12

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 11:56

@Faffertea , Kinnock and Smith managed to reposition Labour away from the worst excesses of cult behaviour. Blair ignored it almost completely. Let's see if he can.

Kinnock has a transgender grandchild, I believe.

ArabellaScott · 03/11/2022 12:11

twitter.com/ECTScotland/status/1587737257116581888

'The rejection of children's rights to determine their own futures has dangerous ramifications beyond LGBT+ issues.'
'For example it could involve rejecting the premise of the original Gillick decision - giving parental right to bar teenage children from being able to access contraception.'

TheBiologyStupid · 03/11/2022 12:02

Rightsraptor · 03/11/2022 08:02

Of course there was no balance on that Twitter thread @JustStopOilyPoshKids : the trans flag was all over it.

When did Labour have that discussion? I maybe blinked and missed it. Or, if this MN 'chat' was it, Keir Starmer is one deluded man.

Do better, Keir.

Absolutely - it's just weeks since Labour Women's Declaration were excluded from the party's annual conference.

Thelnebriati · 03/11/2022 11:57

Will he read it himself though? Is suspect a large part of the problem is that many MP's will have someone else give them the gist.

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 11:56

@Faffertea , Kinnock and Smith managed to reposition Labour away from the worst excesses of cult behaviour. Blair ignored it almost completely. Let's see if he can.

bellinisurge · 03/11/2022 11:55

@LizzieSiddal spot on. Presumably he's getting a sore arse from sitting on the fence. He's learning what happens if you dare to deviate from The Word judging by the TRA meltdown over his wishy-washy interview on MN.

LizzieSiddal · 03/11/2022 11:29

I’ll believe he wants discussion when he speaks out in support of Rosie Duffield and her right to have that discussion.

Faffertea · 03/11/2022 11:15

@fromorbit
It sounds like you have some inside role within the party.
In which case please tell Labour they need to wake up and decide if what they want is to be in government or whether they want to carry on down the purity spiral. They can’t have both because the electorate don’t agree with the hard left policies. Fence sitting, I can see both sides rhetoric is not enough to persuade women like me (not party members but left of centre politics) to vote for them.

I abhor what is happening in our country under the government. I work in NHS and have a child in state school. I cannot see where more cuts to services are possible without breaking our state institutions. There is nothing left to cut.

But I will not sacrifice poor women, imprisoned women, women who have suffered rape or DV, women from religious groups that need single sex spaces by voting for a party that says men can be women if they say so and make life immeasurably worse for them.

Keir needs to grasp the nettle, risk losing the young Labour TRA contingent but recognise by doing so he will win back probably thousands of ordinary women voters and actually win an election. If he doesn’t come out strongly on this we won’t trust him not to go down the Self ID route and Labour will remain unelectable. We need it in black and white policy what he would if elected and he needs to do it now to capitalise on this shit show of a government.

Floisme · 03/11/2022 10:29

Waiting until when though? Until after the next election? Me, I will wait until I've seen their next manifesto and not a second longer.

As for these secret agents and their highly sensitive talks - well I find cynicism an unattractive quality and I don't want to be that person so I will try and keep my thoughts on that to myself, although it'll probably mean I'll have to leave the thread.

Cattytabby · 03/11/2022 10:20

KS is so wet, bits of him are dripping down both sides of the fence.

nilsmousehammer · 03/11/2022 10:15

Well this should be instructive for the Labour Party.

GCs in Labour have a secret weapon in that they are not fanatical

That ^^

This behaviour is what will eventually make every party step away. It's only a matter of letting it roll and waiting.

RoyalCorgi · 03/11/2022 10:11

Starmer is hopeless. I don't have any confidence in him. The least he could do was support Rosie Duffield in the face of all the threats against her, and he hasn't even done that.

Sure, he doesn't want to lose the support of either the TRA wing or the gender-critical wing of the party. We all recognise that's daft because you cannot please both sides - you have to pick a side. But more than that, why not forget about being pragmatic, and just do the morally right thing?

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