Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

It's not transwomen it's trans women, and you already know the difference.

ok. I prefer to use transitioned male here because I have to. I am quite happy to not use the term transwomen.

And what right do you have to insist that women allow 'trans' to be used as an adjective to women?

That you cannot see this is a great indication that misogyny is very much at play here.

No. Women have repeatedly told you that we do not accept anyone redefining us. No males are females. Words have meanings otherwise you wouldn't be here lecturing and admonishing us to force us to use a 'space'. That space has meaning and you are being told that women don't accept being redefined to suit some male's.

Let's use the word 'male'. Done.

Thinking about it, properly-built, well-proportioned, self-contained third spaces could help other groups out too, such as parents who are out and about with a child of the opposite sex who can't go in on their own, or they could be big enough to accommodate a parent with a pushchair comfortably.

We're not asking for changes in the law regarding access to toilets. The existing ones when applied properly are quite adequate.

Personally I'd be quite happy for individual venues to make their own policies about access - provided of course that they are upfront and honest about them. Perhaps in the same way that accessibility statements are on venues' websites. Then women or transwomen can look at the information available online or they can ask a member of staff (who should give a clear answer rather than the vague waffle we often hear), and then decide whether to patronise the venue or take their custom elsewhere.

Of course venues which institute policies which cause Muslim or Jewish women to be excluded may be committing religious discrimination. Ditto those which exclude women who suffer from PTSD (disability discrimination) or who provide insufficient women's facilities compared to men's (sex discrimination). Therefore rather than just rebadging the women's toilets as being for all comers, they should look to properly-built third spaces as the solution in order to avoid legal action.

After all, if transwomen "just need to pee", they surely would have no objection to using third spaces.

Women do mind. That's why they're telling you to get out.

And that's why you're on here, trying to coerce them into saying something different!

Stay out.

Women have the right to single sex spaces under law. There is an exemption clause to protect single sex spaces.

Why change the law?

Because its clear the law isn't being properly understood and is being misrepresented, because certain organisations don't understand the exemption clause properly and are doing everything they can, to get various organisations to believe that women's rights aren't important.

Strengthening the law and making it explicit that certain services MUST be single sex to protect vulnerable women or women in vulnerable situations would be extremely useful to avoid this deliberate blurring of lines in order to abuse the situation.

Doing things like making it a legal requirement to have single sex domestic abuse services available or single sex hospital accomodation or or single sex prison accomodation or single sex changing facilities for those who need them is making sure women are protected. This does not mean that services for trans people are removed. It means that provision of services for them (which will be covered by the EA as legally required) must take a different form.The entire point being that validation of identity does not take precidence over safeguarding.

This may extend to single sex toilet facilities in certain settings too. Arguably, this should definitely be the case in schools due to them being minors.

The exemption clause was always one about proportionality and was supposed to protect women. It is clear that it practice this clause is not having the desired and intended effect to provide that protection in law. Therefore 'tidying up' the law to reflect the original intention and the need to safeguard women, is not the 'gotcha' you seem determined to make out.

The entire point and problem is the degree to which males have riden roughshot over the exemption clause and made a point of demanding unlimited access without any consultation with women or ethnic/religious groups over the implications.

This clarification about the need to ensure women are adequately safeguarded in certain situations and there is a legal responsibility for organisations to do this, might make organisations take a different approach to planning and service provision. None of this takes away from trans people if done properly. It means that both should be protected by law and served properly, to ensure you aren't getting women self excluding and trans people without services.

I think this business about trans women 'just wanting to pee' and 'having a right to pee' needs to be held up for what its about - validation not concerns over safety. If its about just wanting to pee, then the sign on the door does not HAVE to be the ladies. It can be a mixed sex provision which is clearly marked. This means, both males and females can use it in line with their ideological beliefs, as self ID effectively makes all facilities mixed sex anyway.

It's not transwomen it's trans women, and you already know the difference. No trans woman things being a women is a costume.

What is the difference between a 'transwoman' and a man who thinks woman is a costume?

What is the difference between a 'transwoman' and a man who is pretending to be a transwoman?

What is the difference between a 'transwoman' and any other man?

From people who fancy themselves as social justice champions, too. It's like they don't see women.

Yet feel perfectly free to tell us what women think and to tell us what we should accept. As a male.

Plus ca change.

And these people then question and complain why women start saying very bluntly, in terms that allow no confusion, that no males should ever have access to any female single sex spaces from a certain age.

Yet, threats from trans people are hand waved away as 'they were pushed to it having their existence questioned'.

The inconsistency is becoming clearer to the wider population now as is the lack of symmetry.

From people who fancy themselves as social justice champions, too. It's like they don't see women.

It's a very dubious agenda.

What reason does any male have for pushing the agenda that males should have any access to female single sex spaces?

Yes apocalips. I have yet to find any woman who thinks it is ok for males to ever use the female toilets after they are about 8 - 10 years old.

A Labour politician was on Julia Hartley Brewer's show this morning, and she appeared to think the idea of males like Izzard specifically using women's toilets was absurd and wrong, and assumed that Keir Starmer would agree (I'm not so optimistic, he knows full well what a woman is, but he's not going to stand up for us).

I'm so tired of the gaslighting. Women in the majority do not want males in female spaces.

Absolutely. More women are discussing it than ever. And many I have spoken to feel absolutely horrified that what they believed was it was males without a penis. And they immediately feel betrayed by those who have pushed this to this point.

The backlash is building. I am surprised to see posters still trying this line of posting to be fair.

Which is why I want to know what motivates them.

I think though we can draw conclusions if the question remains unanswered.

I thought this was supposed to be about a "Comedian" on a Channel 4 programme?

It's about Kemi Badenoch, isn't it?

wrong thread

If you as a male do this, you are demonstrating a belief that it's ok for you to distress, intimidate and exclude females, and deprive them of any facility at all.

Once you see this, you can't ever unsee it. More women see it every day.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that women who support trans rights do so because they don't understand the issues, or are doing it out of politeness.

And you know this how?

Because a group of mates told you? Wishful thinking? You very deep and abiding knowledge of what it is to be female and your experience as a female?

How do you know this is true or not?

Rule 701 of the Internet: Any discussion on trans'/women's issues inevitably ends up being about women's toilets.

I thought this was supposed to be about a "Comedian" on a Channel 4 programme?

Datun is quite correct though. Males have NEVER been welcomed by the majority of females in their spaces.

It is just some males who persist in trying to push a falsehood using either female socialisation (we simply leave and don't say a fucking thing) or a small group of women who have declared they are alright with it and so let males think that 'everyone' is accepting as a wedge.

As a male, you don't know. You absolutely cannot know and to try to tell us otherwise is just you persisting in attempting to force females to accept males into female single sex spaces.

Again, why? How exactly does this benefit you personally that you are constantly on this board pushing this agenda?

Oh don't be ridiculous. Why do you think women have turned around to men who come in by mistake with 'hey, excuse me, this is the ladies, you're not allowed in here'.

Do you think it's because they don't mind really, but they've just been conditioned into minding? Or do you think that men in the women's toilets is a right fucking pain in the arse for most women?

You have absolutely no idea how a man in a woman's space changes the dynamic, instantly.

Women, occasionally, really want to get away from the male gaze, it's a fucking nuisance. And yes, that includes, young men, old men, grandpas, and teens. And men who think womanhood is a costume.

And They don't have to be in the slightest bit lecherous, they just have to be not in the space that isn't theirs.

Stay out.

Great post, Datun. You always get right to the heart of the matter.

And some people enjoy talking to women about toilets and probably shouldn’t be indulged

This.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that women who support trans rights do so because they don't understand the issues, or are doing it out of politeness.

And then you go off on a tangent about men in women's spaces, which is not the issue. Describing trans women as "men who think women is a costume" is transphobic as hell.

Oh don't be ridiculous. Why do you think women have turned around to men who come in by mistake with 'hey, excuse me, this is the ladies, you're not allowed in here'.

Do you think it's because they don't mind really, but they've just been conditioned into minding? Or do you think that men in the women's toilets is a right fucking pain in the arse for most women?

You have absolutely no idea how a man in a woman's space changes the dynamic, instantly.

Women, occasionally, really want to get away from the male gaze, it's a fucking nuisance. And yes, that includes, young men, old men, grandpas, and teens. And men who think womanhood is a costume.

And They don't have to be in the slightest bit lecherous, they just have to be not in the space that isn't theirs.

Stay out.

@ScrollingLeaves Coleman Hughes says that for every high profile case of a black person being killed by police in the states, he's found a corresponding case of a white person being killed in similar circumstances. It's awful that these cases do not make the news - and "white lives (also) matter" is seen to be a racist statement. I think Tiny Timpa's life mattered.

Just seen other posts, oops.

@TheClogLady that story about the councillor and MP is going to make interesting reading once the police decide/not to get involved. Please keeps us updated!