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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

957 replies

Manteiga · 25/10/2022 19:21

And International Trade Secretary. I'd have preferred to see her as Secretary of State for Education in addition to Minister for Women and Equalities, but this is good news.

twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1584957913059454976

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13
RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 13:21

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/10/2022 10:12

A timely reminder about what Andrea Dworkin said about feminism:

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore.

It is possible to be right on one issue and very very wrong on others.

One of the major problems with current politics is the 'you are either with us or against us' mentality, which doesn't serve the public interest in any way.

This concept means that we are supposed to accept certain detrimental things for this idea of the 'greater good' which hasn't been adequately examined or debated. We are just supposed to accept that someone else has decided on a major programme of policy but the details are irrelevant to us.

We know that various interests need to be balanced but therein lies the issue; no party discusses how we set that balance or where that balance is. The power isn't in the hands of the public and public debate is stiffled.

In reality we SHOULD sometimes be agreeing with Tories and sometimes with Labour members. Because thats HEALTHY and how things happen in the real world.

Some important context:
One of the things that the Tories are trying to push through in terms of 'human rights reform' within the Bill of British Rights is this concept of those who are worthy of human rights and those who are not. So the suggestion is that criminals lose their rights - of course this is framed as paedos and murderers - but the implications go much further than that and affect us all. If you start to create a situation where not everyone is worthy of human rights, you are saying its okay to abuse and act inhumanly to groups you dislike.

Ironically in saying that Gender Criticals are unworthy of rights and in bed with the far right, what are certain Labour Supporters doing? Supporting the Tories...

So we have this weird thing of saying Gender Criticals are in bed with the 'fascist tories', whilst effectively supporting an idea which fits in with a Tory policy of removing rights from one group.

The point for Human Rights is they must be balanced where there are competing interests. This effectively comes down to protections from harm coming first and then feelings / privacy etc coming second. And you protect vulnerable and often unpopular groups first because they don't have advocacy / control over their lives. This means children and people under state care first over all others. Cos thats what safeguarding is all about. Its about Rights and Protections. You can't then start blathering on about safeguarding being a weasel word or a transphobic dog whistle. Cos it doesn't make sense in the wider context of rights.

Kemi Badenoch in saying that we should protect women and children from ideology is actually doing this, when the Tories are moving away from this in other ways. She is saying that women prisoners are worthy of protection from a wider ideology in society. Ironically.

This shows there is something of a breathe of view within Conservative thinking that is increasingly being discouraged within Labour Circles. I think you have to ask questions about this.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Tory. I don't support them. I think Labour have some policies and ideas which are vitally important to our country. My point is that if you are being instantly dismissive of Badenoch (who I think its a wing nut in other respects) you are missing the point and aren't interesting in the best thing for our country and the public as a whole.

This concept of being gender critical meaning you are in bed with fascists is utterly ridiculous for this reason.

What it comes down to is a Labour issue with being unable to understand the principles that underpin rights and that also means that our wider rights are at risk, because unless you understand how rights work: That Dorkin quote above highlights it well.

Labour are utterly failing to protect ALL rights if they indulge this nonsense and they use this force teaming mentality that you are 'either with us or against us'.

If Labour are all about rights they need to acutally get their head out their arse and demonstrate they understand the principles on which they are founded on, better rather than going along with this nonsense which will ultimately go hand in hand with their demise. At the moment all they do is prove that actually they don't have a bloody clue what they are talking about and are going to be complicit in undoing what they say they stand for.

Datun · 29/10/2022 13:03

Every time someone comes on here and talks bollocks about Kemi, it just reinforces to me that they're shitting it about what she's about to do.

Comforting really!

TheClogLady · 29/10/2022 12:49

This thread has been doing the opposite of side stepping, in that we’ve been looking at Badenoch’s past record and the context in which votes occurred.

We can go over the fracking thing if you want but it doesn’t seem very relevant to the Equalities role?

beastlyslumber · 29/10/2022 11:20

Tillsforthrills · 29/10/2022 09:55

Nice way to side step all the points brought up in this thread about what she believes in, quite apart from fracking and abortion buffer zones…actively voting to not giving poor and vulnerable children free school meals, benefit cuts, getting rid of TA’s in classrooms. That is disgusting especially in this climate and yes, people find that monstrous so stop clutching pearls.

The point being discussed is, although she knows what a woman is, she is a Tory on the side of the privileged as they all are. That is what’s being discussed on a hotly debated issue such as women’s rights, what do you expect?

I haven't sidestepped anything. No one has brought any coherent argument other than "she's disgusting because she's a tory" (which is also what you just said). Her voting record has been discussed at length on this thread. Scroll back and you'll see it all.

WahineToa · 29/10/2022 10:41

Nice way to side step all the points brought up in this thread about what she believes in, quite apart from fracking and abortion buffer zones…actively voting to not giving poor and vulnerable children free school meals, benefit cuts, getting rid of TA’s in classrooms. That is disgusting especially in this climate and yes, people find that monstrous so stop clutching pearls.

Nice way to insert a misogynistic lazy phrase on a feminist board.

All of the points on the thread you just repeated have been discussed quite a bit. People can still think it’s a positive to have her specifically as Women’s & Equalities minister because of her position on women’s most basic rights, and because it’s a positive for representation. The fact she is a Conservative doesn’t change the fact she is a young black woman.

What are you wanting anyway? Anyone as long as it isn’t a Tory? Regardless of their position on women’s rights in the equality act? You are never ever going to have a minister of anything that you will agree with on everything. Regardless of which party they are in. Women are entitled to prioritise themselves and the most pressing issue they think faces them.

Fracking ban is back in place. Why would even concern our busy selves with her position on it?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/10/2022 10:12

A timely reminder about what Andrea Dworkin said about feminism:

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore.

Tillsforthrills · 29/10/2022 09:55

beastlyslumber · 25/10/2022 21:47

I'm happy to listen if people want to explain what makes Kemi so dreadful and disgusting and monstrous and evil. But all I'm getting so far is that she's right wing. Well yeah... she's in the tory cabinet. What did you expect?

It looks like a lot of people on the left really can't cope when a black woman has views they disagree with. The vitriol aimed at Kemi is extra.

Nice way to side step all the points brought up in this thread about what she believes in, quite apart from fracking and abortion buffer zones…actively voting to not giving poor and vulnerable children free school meals, benefit cuts, getting rid of TA’s in classrooms. That is disgusting especially in this climate and yes, people find that monstrous so stop clutching pearls.

The point being discussed is, although she knows what a woman is, she is a Tory on the side of the privileged as they all are. That is what’s being discussed on a hotly debated issue such as women’s rights, what do you expect?

PomegranateOfPersephone · 28/10/2022 21:10

Datun · 28/10/2022 00:03

It's man.

Adult human male.

If a woman is an adult human female, then an adult human male is a man.

For the purposes of sex segregation, it's man. For the purposes of identifying the sexes, it's man.

We only say male because we've been intimidated into thinking that saying man is a heinous crime. Like saying woman, funnily enough.

if we want to be counted as women, adult human females, then we have to say man.

This!

Man and woman. Adult human male and adult human female respectively. Three words compressed into one in each case. A win for plain English, clear, effective and efficient.

VeryRapidNameChange · 28/10/2022 10:48

Thanks!

PronounssheRa · 28/10/2022 10:36

VeryRapidNameChange · 28/10/2022 10:30

The one in Private Eye? I've had a couple of letters published in it in the past.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/pedants_corner

Enjoy!

VeryRapidNameChange · 28/10/2022 10:30

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2022 09:08

THERES A PEDANTS CORNER?!?!!

How THE FUCK did I not know about this?

The one in Private Eye? I've had a couple of letters published in it in the past.

TofuonToast · 28/10/2022 09:35

ChristinaXYZ · 25/10/2022 20:34

People who hold different views to you are not monstrous for god sake.

Are your views the only good ones to have? You better list them so we all know what to think. Talk about arrogance!

I don't agree with Kemi on everything (fracking and the buffer zones being two of them) but I can accept that I do not hold the absolute way, truth and light in my head, and don't presume my beliefs and ideas are better than hers. I am pleased she has the women and equalities brief because we won't go backwards whilst she has it.

The level of discourse in the country stands no chance unless people (mainly on the left, right wingers are more comfortable with debate) stop behaving as though there is only one tiny bit of moral high ground and that they have unique possession of it.

This with big fat bells on

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2022 09:08

DdraigGoch · 28/10/2022 00:54

Pedants' Corner exists for those who wish to bicker about spelling, but suffice it to say that prefixes aren't followed by a space.

Hence:
Transatlantic
Transparent

THERES A PEDANTS CORNER?!?!!

How THE FUCK did I not know about this?

Asdavaluesausage · 28/10/2022 05:14

I just imagined @dad pounding that into the keyboard, in a rage, muttering it through gritted teeth. Pure male rate at uppity women.

Helleofabore · 28/10/2022 04:44

It's not transwomen it's trans women

It is quite something to see, the anger males have when women want their spaces back.

DdraigGoch · 28/10/2022 00:54

DadJoke · 27/10/2022 18:01

It's not transwomen it's trans women, and you already know the difference. No trans woman things being a women is a costume.

Pedants' Corner exists for those who wish to bicker about spelling, but suffice it to say that prefixes aren't followed by a space.

Hence:
Transatlantic
Transparent

ScrollingLeaves · 28/10/2022 00:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 23:11

The Independent has documented Badenoch’s lfalsehoods in her first parliamentary comments in the new role, attacking Pink News

The "Independent" is almost as dubious a news source as Pink News is. Well done for letting them wind you up and frothing over a complete non-story, I guess

and
Here Cohen is protesting too much. To call Badenoch’s claim ‘misinformation’ or a ‘fabrication’ ignores that there is more than a grain of truth to it. It is technically true that neither Pink News nor its CEO lost a case in court to Cherry, but they did have a near miss. After Pink News falsely alleged that Cherry was ‘being investigated for homophobia’, she called in her lawyers and managed to get Pink News to apologise ‘unreservedly’y’_. It had to acknowledge that she is a lesbian who has ‘spent a lifetime marching and campaigning for the rights of the LGBT+ community’. Pink News paid her legal fees and donated the cost of the damages to an LGBT charity at Cherry’s request.

And Julie Bindel had a similar outcome, although not specifically referenced by Kemi in Parliament, earlier she wrote about it:

Thanks for pointing all this out Eresh. It is extraordinary to see the amount that gets said that turns out to be misleading or basically untrue.

MangyInseam · 28/10/2022 00:25

Amazing how a rather useful thread became, yet again, about toilets.

I think some people don't like these discussions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2022 00:04

I do think we are going to have to start saying "man" to break the spell. The gaslighting has gone on too long.

Datun · 28/10/2022 00:03

Asdavaluesausage · 27/10/2022 21:30

Yup. I agree. Male transsexual and female transsexual. Say what we see.

It's man.

Adult human male.

If a woman is an adult human female, then an adult human male is a man.

For the purposes of sex segregation, it's man. For the purposes of identifying the sexes, it's man.

We only say male because we've been intimidated into thinking that saying man is a heinous crime. Like saying woman, funnily enough.

if we want to be counted as women, adult human females, then we have to say man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2022 23:37

It's not transwomen it's trans women

If you're referring to male trans people, rather than female, which I assume you are, it's neither. MTF trans people is what I say on here due to the rules, elsewhere I am blunter.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2022 23:32

From Jo Bartosch's Spiked article linked upthread:

Here Cohen is protesting too much. To call Badenoch’s claim ‘misinformation’ or a ‘fabrication’ ignores that there is more than a grain of truth to it. It is technically true that neither Pink News nor its CEO lost a case in court to Cherry, but they did have a near miss. After Pink News falsely alleged that Cherry was ‘being investigated for homophobia’, she called in her lawyers and managed to get Pink News to apologise ‘unreservedly’y’_. It had to acknowledge that she is a lesbian who has ‘spent a lifetime marching and campaigning for the rights of the LGBT+ community’. Pink News paid her legal fees and donated the cost of the damages to an LGBT charity at Cherry’s request.^

And Julie Bindel had a similar outcome, although not specifically referenced by Kemi in Parliament, earlier she wrote about it:

t.co/O7Kwbmhn0P

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2022 23:11

The Independent has documented Badenoch’s lfalsehoods in her first parliamentary comments in the new role, attacking Pink News.

The "Independent" is almost as dubious a news source as Pink News is. Well done for letting them wind you up and frothing over a complete non-story, I guess.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/10/2022 22:40

TheBiologyStupid · Today 21:57

^ScrollingLeaves · Today 21:41

“TheBiologyStupid · Today 21:28
“Let's use the word 'male'. Done”

“This! Or male transsexual, which is a legally recognised term (unlike "transwoman", with or without a gap)”

I think male transsexual is a better word but I thought somehow it was considered ‘wrong’ these days.

It's in written law though, unlike "gender identity" or "transwoman" which have no legal validity whatsoever.

What about in that bench-book (is this the right term?) written by a male transsexual QC or lawyer to advise the judiciary?

TheBiologyStupid · 27/10/2022 21:57

ScrollingLeaves · 27/10/2022 21:41

TheBiologyStupid · Today 21:28
Let's use the word 'male'. Done

This! Or male transsexual, which is a legally recognised term (unlike "transwoman", with or without a gap)

I think male transsexual is a better word but I thought somehow it was considered ‘wrong’ these days.

It's in written law though, unlike "gender identity" or "transwoman" which have no legal validity whatsoever.

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