Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

Well I object but I thought you and the other poster made the point clearly.

I suspect she didn't really think about how it sounds. I see the same argument here about the wrong kind of woman quite frequently. It seems to be a bit of a trap people fall into.

YY.

Anyone saying that KB voting against the clause in the Public Order bill relating to Buffer zones around abortion clinics somehow makes her 'anti abortion' is grossly over simplifying the issue, either intentionally or not, IDK.

(she might well be anti abortion, I have no idea, that one vote isn't enough to say one way or the other)

What makes white privilege specifically divisive, as opposed to male privilege or the privilege of being able bodied or straight?

Any NI Mumsnetters around to help us better understand the social and legal landscape around the 2019 Marriage Equality vote? Badenoch seems to have been completely absent (not an abstention) but I haven’t worked out if that was due to illness or working elsewhere (MPs on committees or with ministerial duties are often double booked) or, as there were quite a number of absentees, it might even have been due to the fairly compelling argument that Westminster has no right to vote on issues that are theoretically devolved and that tabling the vote was as much motivated by blackmailing the DUP re: Stormont reopening than it was about actual human rights?

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/same-sex-marriage-coming-to-north-if-stormont-not-open-again-by-october-1.3951640

As far as I can tell it was a ‘conscious vote’ for both Labour and Tory parties (no ‘whip’, MPs had a free choice)?

White privilege is nothing more than saying that as an unemployed white man you have a bit of an advantage over your unemployed black neighbour - it doesn't mean that you are not being screwed.

”white privilege” is a divisive term and I can understand why people reject it.

I was making a point, not making a detailed assessment of the circumstances around when you can get support for childcare.

Do you believe that a single mother in poverty faces issues relating to their sex that a rich woman does not face?

It drives me crazy that many poor able bodied white men don't understand that they they can simultaneously have male and white privilege, whilst being very disadvantaged compared to others in society who might be black, gay, female, or disabled.

White privilege is nothing more than saying that as an unemployed white man you have a bit of an advantage over your unemployed black neighbour - it doesn't mean that you are not being screwed.

I think I would argue that class (or rather wealth) is the most important privilege one can have. Obviously I would never wish to be in this position, but I can imagine that a wheelchair-bound black lesbian might find life relatively (compared to many many others in society) straightforward in many ways were she to have £100m in the bank to pay for whatever help and support she needs.

Backtrack - I'd rather be healthy than wealthy and were I sitting on a pot of cash and struggling to breathe I would not feel privileged.

That's the problem with the check-box approach.

Do people just want a check in a box, so and so voted for a law that is supposed to relate to equalities, or abortion, or whatever?

Or do they want good effective laws that are in line with democratic principles and look at the big picture and long term implications?

The check box approach also tends to lead to poor legislation indirectly. When they know there will be robust debate in the House, the people who research and right the bills know they have to be careful and on solid ground legally and practically. If it's just about check-boxes to present to voters, they will produce all kinds of shit.

but a poor single mother who simply cannot afford to pay for childcare out of the wages gets childcare provided by the government.

You seem to be highlighting the importance of social class when it comes to peoples experiences. I think class often seems to gets sidelined in discussions around "intersectionality". Personally I agree that class is probably one of the most important factors (although it's important not to forget it's not the only one). It's undeniable that wealth definitely protects people from the most punishing aspects of life and this includes people with various protected characteristics. It's why the word "privileged" is never likely to go down that well when applied to extremely poor, white, working class people.

I was trying to explain how I believe someone could come to the view that Kwasi is not black.

You didn’t do a good job explaining that was what you were doing but also, it’s not some harmless pondering. It’s deeply offensive and I don’t need it ‘splained to me why or how they come to their deranged conclusions that Rishi, Kemi & Kwasi don’t count. I’ve lived with racism all my life, in all its forms. I’m very aware, painfully so, of the various ways racists come up with to exclude black and brown people, including from their own race. The poster here though wasn’t saying it was about money with Kemi, they were saying her views around two issues meant she was a repugnant appointment, not because of money at all.

Sure, but I think when people say this it tends to imply it works in the US, which it doesn't.

I think you are referring to the question "Had it occurred to you that a rich woman could simultaneously understand sexism, whilst not fully understanding it in the way a single mother on benefits understands it?"

My answer. Yes, it had occurrred to me that a rich woman could be well aware of sexism and understand it, whilst not fully understanding it in the way that a woman who lives in poverty is forced to. This is because every obstacle that you put in someone's path is made that much worse if they already face other obstacles. For example a rich white woman might struggle massively with issues relating to child-care and going back to work... but a poor single mother who simply cannot afford to pay for childcare out of the wages she could potentially earn faces sexism in a much more brutal way.

I was trying to explain how I believe someone could come to the view that Kwasi is not black. The only explanation I can come up with is that blackness is defined by a majority black experience, not skin colour, and that as a very privileged man Kwasi does not share that experience (but, I am sure that he has experienced racism, just not in quite the same way that a teenager on the streets of hackney experiences it.)

‘Types of racism’ ???

No. Racism. Classism. If they overlap is the experience different, yes. But racism is racism. Rishi has had more than his share in just one day.

@TheClogLady Thank you. I am well aware (25 years on the net to prove it, plus real life) that I am very capable of saying things which are controversial and easily misunderstood / misread. I would rather make the point I wish to make and risk a pile-on than censor myself.

To be clear - Kwasi is a black man and I am certain that he has experience racism.

I also think trans people would see themselves as a class in the same way that women are, and most don’t necessarily want their rights to override that of women, but women’s sex based rights and trans gender rights can’t simultaneously exist, so the conflict arises.

But they can simultaneously exist, because trans people haven't actually changed sex, so MTF trans people have no legitimate claim to be considered women, as women are female. It's not their "right" to do whatever they want in life with no regard for others.

They are able to be a class in the same way women are, like any special interest group. The conflict is that some males want to appropriate women's rights. If they accepted their sex, and that there are some spaces and other things just for women, as we are a marginalised group, there would be no conflict. Most feminists who have come to oppose gender identity ideology started out as trans supporters, and some would still consider themselves so.

@YouSirNeighMmmm Why don’t you reread your first comment on it and answer the question you just posed to me:

*I would not wish to say that someone is not really black, but it is undoubtedly true that some black people are increedibly privileged to the point that they simply do not share the same experience as most ordinary black people and have been sheltered from all sorts of types of racism.

If black is defined as a majority experience not just as simply a colour then Kwasi Kwarteng is not black. I would not define "black" this way.*

@YouSirNeighMmmm I have no idea why you presented an argument you now say you don’t believe in. The differences in experiences are the same as women from different classes, nobody would define women solely based on their wealth and exclude rich women because their experience is different. Still suffering sexism, just different.

I agree with you 100% (albeit I think there i more that is worth adding to your words) and don't get why you have a problem with what I say.

Have you heard of intersectional feminism?

Had it occurred to you that a rich woman could simultaneously understand sexism, whilst not fully understanding it in the way a single mother on benefits understands it?

Badenoch hasn’t had the super-privileged typical-Tory, public school followed by Oxbridge upbringing so those (silly) arguments aren’t really applicable here anyway.
Her parents are well-educated medical field professionals in Nigeria but she was sent to London alone at just 16.

(don’t worry, I realise they aren’t your arguments, SirNeigh!)

from Wikipedia:

Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke was born on 2 January 1980 in Wimbledon, London.
She is the daughter of Femi Adegboke and Feyi Adegoke who are of Nigerian origin. Her father was a GP and her mother is a professor of physiology. Badenoch's childhood included living in Lagos, Nigeria and in the United States, where her mother lectured.
She has a brother named Fola and a sister called Lola.
She returned to the UK at the age of 16 to live with a friend of her mother's owing to the deteriorating political and economic situation in Nigeria which had affected her family.
Although a British citizen and born in the UK, Badenoch stated that she was “to all intents and purposes a first-generation immigrant” during her parliamentary maiden speech.

She obtained A Levels from Phoenix College, a former further education college in Morden, whilst working at a branch of McDonald's among other jobs.
Badenoch studied Computer Systems Engineering at the University of Sussex, completing an Master of Engineering (MEng) degree in 2003.
She initially worked within the IT sector, first as a software engineer at Logica (later CGI Group) from 2003 to 2006.

While working there she studied law part-time at Birkbeck, University of London, and completed an Bachelor of Laws (LLB) degree in 2009.
Badenoch then worked as a systems analyst at the Royal Bank of Scotland Group before pursuing a career in consultancy and financial services, working as an associate director of private bank and wealth manager Coutts from 2006 to 2013 and later a digital director at The Spectator from 2015 to 2016.

All I am saying is...

that people who go to Prep School then Eton then Cambridge then enter the workforce with a PhD have a very difference experience to the experience of more ordinary people.

By extension (and I might be wrong, but I don;t believe that I am) their experience of racism will be completely different to a kid who went to an under-resourced comprehensive and then entered the workforced at a less elevated level.

Or to put it another way. Despite being black KK is more privileged than huge swathes of the white population.

This does not stop KK being black. It does not mean that he has not faced racism.

But, if you (AND I DON;T!!!!!!) define blackness by a shared experience (which I presume some people do as how else could they describe a black person as not being black) then KK risks missing out because his privilege allowed him to escape a more typical black experience.

KK IS BLACK AND HAS FACED RACISM, I AM CERTAIN OF BOTH OF THESE THINGS.

It’s the doubling down that gets me.

Rich women and poor women both experience sexism. Poor women also experience class prejudice. That doesn’t mean the rich women don’t understand sexism. How do you even think like this? You’re not less of a woman if you’re rich. Why are you less black or brown because you’re rich? It’s stupid and offensive