Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

@beastlyslumber what are the downsides to immigration?

in this case to fulfill labour force challenges as opposed to asylum seekers.

@beastlyslumber its not telling people not to have children - it’s providing women financial incentives to do so. (I vehemently opposed to the two child cap for benefits)

there are an extraordinary number of innovations that are available to fulfill labour requirements in all the sectors that you mention that don’t involve governments using women as brood mares.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the entire issue @Cavviesarethebest Yes of course there is a concern about elderly care - and also healthcare, nursing, dental care, legal services, farming etc etc. It's not just elderly care that's at stake if there are fewer economically active citizens. The entire economy is under threat if there aren't enough people. Immigration may make up for some of the lack, but it won't fix the whole problem, and there are many down sides.

Plus, it's kind of anti-human to tell people not to have kids. Most people do want kids, and would likely have more if there was better support, childcare and financial incentives to do so.

@beastlyslumber why do you think increasing immigration to is a bad idea?

@beastlyslumber so what is the primary argument for government manipulating the procreation choices of women if it is not to provide a workforce for the aging population?

@ArabellaScott the population who voted for brexit is proportionally elderly.

they are now realising that removing freedom of movement means that there is a reduced working population for elderly care.

and the proposed solution is for younger women to churn out more babies regardless of the economic, social and economic impact on those women.

thisnis because of a view among that elderly population thst it better protects their economic interests.

Fucking hell, you are rude. And that's saying something on this thread.

@beastlyslumber so what is the primary argument?

wtf? A greedy elderly population, are you serious?

the primary argument to support population growth is to support the excising aging population?

No, it's not.

Jesus, @Cavviesarethebest can you not just put your point of view without using a term of abuse? I'm not dumb, not even a little bit.

the implications of an aging population with a longer life expectancy due to medical interventions

Well one of the implications is that there is a diminishing work force, and not enough people to look after and provide services for the elderly. Too many people not able to contribute to the economy is going to be a huge problem.

an understanding of the environmental and infrastructure implications of an in increased population

What about the implications of a decreased population? You only have to look at what's happening in China to see the huge problems that could be in store.

an understanding of the real financial, physical and social implications of having children in the currentl social structure

What do you mean by that? You don't think people should have children because... ?

it’s not a cracking outcome for children to be born to support a greedy elderly population who can’t bear the notion of well managed immigration

Woah. So the elderly are "greedy"? And they don't want immigration? Have you actually taken a breath and asked yourself what you mean by this?

So people should stop having babies and instead we should encourage more immigration, in your view? This seems like a plan with an awful lot of flaws.

@Signalbox the primary argument to support population growth is to support the excising aging population?

im the uk specifically the main issue with the fact that population replacement is low is that it reduces the workforce to care for the elderly population

there are very few - if any? - people arguing for women to have more babies just because

That sounds a bit ageist.

@beastlyslumber no not all - but someone who understands the implications of an aging population with a longer life expectancy due to medical interventions and an understanding of the environmental and infrastructure implications of an in increased population and an understanding of the real financial, physical and social implications of having children in the currentl social structure would not be dumb enough to think the solution is as simple as that women should have more babies.

Really? How have I demonstrated that? By having a different view than you do?

implications for women!

but it’s not a cracking outcome for children to be born to support a greedy elderly population who can’t bear the notion of well managed immigration

@beastlyslumber youvbe demonstrated a really poor understanding of the issues around population growth AND the implications of child bearing and rearing for children.

I think we should. Actually I think we are already in big trouble in this respect and we should be urgently trying to fix this situation. We are going to be so fucked if people don't start having more babies, and fast!

But when some politician mooted the idea of a tax holiday for women having more than two babies, MN exploded with rage! There was a whole thread about how it was fascist to have babies.

I just don’t see it as an issue that needs addressing because it’s currently not very common at all. Seems like we have been educated on it!

The fertility rate has indeed dropped in the UK because of female emancipation. That doesn't mean that there aren't families of eight living in two-bedroom terraces. It's not good for the kids to grow up in those conditions. Education and raising aspirations is one way to avoid this circumstance in future generations.

Given our falling birthrate in teh UK and the ageing population maybe we shoudl actually be encouraging women to start having more babies?

It’s lovely to choose whether to work or not to look after dc but I’m under no illusion I don’t benefit from having another earner in the household that enables the choice.

Growth in the economy helps the other person find secure work, it would be really self defeating to imagine ‘growth’ is bad, and a bit rose tinted to think something else will be lovelier. Humans are a messy, striving bunch, but good things come out of that that too.

If someone could tell me some numbers for what growth they want instead I’d be interested

Therefore as a society, we need to look at how the desire for purpose can be satisfied in a different way

the average number of kids per family is less than 2. Nowhere near 6. So the story isn’t very representative of most mothers, is it. We aren’t, in the main, having more and more kids for something to do.

Weirdly it’s 50 something men who seem to have a problem with the existential void, rather than 50 something women!

That makes sense

But I’m wondering what people would like to see if they don’t like growth - what’s the figure we’re talking about