Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

See, this is exactly what I think kemi understands, only too well.

That someone arguing for men to have the right to use women's toilets knows (and says) that they are already and a lot of women want them to stop.

"look I know none of you want us in there, so just admit it, and then we can tell you to fuck off anyway".

Providing a single sex toilet does not meet that criteria. There isn't a single legal precedent for this. I'd like to see someone try, though - it would require a provider to designate the space as such which to the best of my knowledge, no one has. It's certainly not illegal for a provider to allow them to do this.

I'm glad some GC people accept trans women in women's loos and it's certainly news to me, but back to the original point - Badenoch doesn't and wants to prevent trans women from doing this, which is an attack on their existing rights.

God I wonder what the worst book he ever read was. I thought White Fragility was in a class of it's own!

That GC people want to stop them using women's loos?

Some women are happy for men to use women's loos. Some women are not happy for men to use women's loos. Personally, I think if there is still a group of women who do not want to share then an effort should be made to accommodate them. The infrastructure for single-sex loos already exists. All it will take is for a tiny minority of men to accept that a sizeable group of women do wish to share. If they can't accept women's boundaries then it really says rather a lot about those men. There probably isn't a lot that women can do about this in the long run but that's just life as a woman. We are used to having our boundaries ignored.

Indeed. John McWhorter described Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility as the second-worst book he had ever read. But then he's the wrong kind of black, too, I suppose?

I want males to stop encroaching on single sex spaces, services and sports for female people, yes, but males have never actually had a legal ‘right’ to be in those female spaces, services and sports so no, I do not agree that GC people want to remove anyone’s legal rights, they just want the same sex protections that exist in law to be properly upheld.

You are wrong. "Trans women" do not use women's loos".

For (1) they are not women's loos if a man is using them. For (2) lots of "trans women" use the men's, and (3) it is not "trans women" who use them, as "trans women" is a meaningless term. The people who are using them are men who claim a trans woman identity. I have no idea what percentage of them are actually "trans women" or indeed if there is any meaningful way of telling a trans woman apart from a man who claims a trans woman identity.

GC women don;t want to stop the proportion of trans women who exhibit their inherent male entitlement from using women's toilets. GC women want men who claim a trans women identity to stop creating mixed sex spaces and destroying single sex spaces at the same time.

You do understand, don't you, that people doing something that other people want them to stop doing, doesn't constitute a right?

This seems relevant:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/24/outrage-labour-mp-says-rishi-sunak-pm-isnt-win-asian-representation/

'A Labour MP has claimed Rishi Sunak’s election as prime minister is not “a win for Asian representation” because he is a multi-millionaire who oversaw a fall in UK living standards.

Nadia Whittome, a Nottingham MP who is a member of the Left-wing Socialist Campaign Group, caused outrage after she said Mr Sunak was “not on your side” as Britain’s first prime minister of Asian heritage.'

I can see through CRT but I can't see through the concept of white privilege.

The concept of white privilege in crt is that white people are born sinners. No matter what experience a white person has in life, no matter how difficult their lives may be, they should not complain because their natural state is whiteness, which is a state of evil. You can say whatever you like about white people because they are sinners and it means nothing to them.

But you don't disagree with what I've just said - that trans women use women's loos, and that (almost all) want them to stop?

Of course, this review found Robin's expertise somewhat lacking... www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/

That was an unintentional pun.

I've looked at it and the GRA in some detail, and it does not ban trans women from women's loos. At the very least, can you confirm you agree with the following:

You are right that the GRA doesn't ban TW from women's loos. The Equality Act does allow for them to be excluded from them though where there is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. Providing a single sex toilet facility would meet this criteria.

Trans women currently use women's loos

Some do. I've seen some argue against this.

GC people want them to stop.

Not all GC people do. I've seen some argue otherwise.

That transwomen (a term that doesn’t exist in UK law) have a ‘right’ to use single sex facilities for woman (legally defined as a female of any age).

I'm really quite enjoying how all these transactivists are going off alarming at Kemi's appointment.

As evidenced by dadjoke desperately trying to frame male demands as rights, they've got nothing.

There are no laws set up to strip women of their spaces, privacy and dignity. There is just bad faith interpretation, and stonewall law.

kemi knows what has happened, and she knows how it's happened.

She knows exactly what to do.

Which bit am I mistaken about:

That trans women use women's loos?

That GC people want to stop them using women's loos?

I didn't use the term "single-sex toilet". But a single sex service / facility for women, by definition, excludes all people of the male sex. As soon as males are allowed to use a single-sex service it ceases to be single sex doesn't it?

Some services / facilities rely on social convention to maintain their single-sex status. This would apply to toilets. If social convention is dismantled, as appears to be happening in the case of toilets, it becomes difficult for them to remain as single-sex. Obviously the single-sex exceptions can be used to provide a single-sex space, but on the whole I think organisations are nervous about using them and probably are not quite sure how to go about doing this without finding themselves on the wrong side of a bunch of badly behaved trans activists. So we have a situation where women's boundaries continue to be pushed and broken down by males who pretend they have always had access to women's spaces and that women have always been OK with it until about 5 minutes ago when all the naughty terfs crawled out of the woodwork. In reality women are just bystanders in the dismantling of their boundaries. We were never asked if we wanted to share our spaces and when we give our opinions we are called names for daring to speak out.

Transmagic, innit!

Is DadJoke arguing that both sexes can use a single-sex toilet, without making it mixed sex?

Interesting proposal!

I will stick with the definition in the equality act though - ‘a woman is a female of any age’, no such thing as a transwoman or a ciswoman in UK Equalities Law!

I think you are mistaken.

A proportion of males who claim to identify as women (whilst not being able to define what a woman is) convert single sex spaces into mixed sex ones as they enter, and they do this in order to validate themselves as something that they cannot be by definition, despite the loss of privacy, security, dignity and comfort it causes women.

I think that we should start using the word cis-women to refer to trans women.

When they finally achieve equality with women - we are all cis - (they don't have it now because TWAW but real women are cis women) we can s'ip back to using "women" without the cis and hope they don't notice.

I've looked at it and the GRA in some detail, and it does not ban trans women from women's loos. At the very least, can you confirm you agree with the following:

Trans women currently use women's loos.
GC people want them to stop.

When you say trans women do you mean human females who identify as trans or human males who identify as trans?

Because obviously a male can’t use a single sex facility designated for female people and the facility also remain ‘single sex.

The moment a male uses it, it becomes mixed sex.

The Equality Act 2010 defines woman as ‘a female of any age’.

It’s important to define terms, ensures we aren’t speaking at cross purposes.