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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi Badenoch appointed new Minister for Women and Equalities

957 replies

Manteiga · 25/10/2022 19:21

And International Trade Secretary. I'd have preferred to see her as Secretary of State for Education in addition to Minister for Women and Equalities, but this is good news.

twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1584957913059454976

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TheClogLady · 27/10/2022 10:06

@YouSirNeighMmmm Coleman Hughes is worth a listen on the US policing issue.

I think this is his most recent long form interview but he’s done a previous one with Triggernometry and has been on Joe Rogan.

2022: m.youtube.com/watch?v=mpxxBCCQaks

If you are interested it might be best to start with the older stuff which is more focused on police procedure and statistics and less about political policy failure…

2020: m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtjuf_RxsLA

2022: open.spotify.com/episode/34gutw3EZaaHAZWBiX6cno?si=RRo_uU19Qtm6n-xYBFzE4w

ScrollingLeaves · 27/10/2022 10:04

beastlyslumber · Today 09:58
As an aside one example of white privilege. My understanding is that in the USA black people are very often subject to bad treatment compared to white people when being stopped / arrested. And this happens whether the arresting officer is black or white. Now it could be that it is anti-black racism from a proportion of white and black officers, but maybe "white-privilege" is a better way of looking at the benefit of being white when stopped.

But more unarmed white people are killed by the police in the US than any other demographic. So what does that mean for their 'white privilege'?

I had no idea if that, Beastly. If possible please do you have a link based on the proportion of the population? (Not questioning you, just interested.)

Smilelesstalkmore · 27/10/2022 10:03

beastlyslumber · 27/10/2022 09:58

As an aside one example of white privilege. My understanding is that in the USA black people are very often subject to bad treatment compared to white people when being stopped / arrested. And this happens whether the arresting officer is black or white. Now it could be that it is anti-black racism from a proportion of white and black officers, but maybe "white-privilege" is a better way of looking at the benefit of being white when stopped.

But more unarmed white people are killed by the police in the US than any other demographic. So what does that mean for their 'white privilege'?

Is that not just because there are more white people in America though? What are the statistics on a population percentage level? (Genuine question).

White privilege is such an easy concept to understand, I don't know why people have such difficulty with it?

Smilelesstalkmore · 27/10/2022 10:00

Trans women can and do use women’s loos perfectly legally. You want that to stop, yes?

Define 'trans woman' for the purposes of law here please. What point of transition does one need to be at to be defined as a 'transwoman' in law?

What about refuges, hospital wards, prisons - what is the legal framework for those, please could you explain that to us all?

As far as I understand, there are no laws around who uses what public toilet anyway.

beastlyslumber · 27/10/2022 09:58

As an aside one example of white privilege. My understanding is that in the USA black people are very often subject to bad treatment compared to white people when being stopped / arrested. And this happens whether the arresting officer is black or white. Now it could be that it is anti-black racism from a proportion of white and black officers, but maybe "white-privilege" is a better way of looking at the benefit of being white when stopped.

But more unarmed white people are killed by the police in the US than any other demographic. So what does that mean for their 'white privilege'?

NecessaryScene · 27/10/2022 09:55

Now it could be that it is anti-black racism from a proportion of white and black officers, but maybe "white-privilege" is a better way of looking at the benefit of being white when stopped.

The problem is that there's this weird inversion where there's an assumption that such a thing must have happened to someone - it's this systemic thing that exists, so they must have experienced it. While people totally ignore the impact of "anti-racist" policies and fail to net them off.

Now, I was similarly resistant to "male privilege", but in this fight, you can clearly see it happening - even people like Douglas Murray have been forced to concede that. Even if it's not an all-pervasive thing that happens in all circumstances, it's happening here. Women are far less able to safely talk on this subject than men, due to the social expectation of "being kind", and the way that's leveraged on this subject. But a woman who's not encountered the trans issue may have never hit this in quite the same way.

So in your example, if someone has never been stopped by the police, then that instance of "white privilege" would never have occurred. Whereas they may have very definitely been hit by a "white penalty", such as explicit race-based discrimination in job/university applications.

I think you have to look at the actual impact of privilege, not just it theoretically existing. Non-colour-blind people have the privilege of being able to be pilots, for example, and this must be a huge deal to some people, but for the vast majority this "able to be a pilot" privilege really isn't relevant. Penalising non-colour-blind people generally in non-aviation circumstances for their pilot-privilege would be daft.

It's perverse to insist that someone must have a privilege when you don't know how many circumstances they've encountered where it would have occurred, AND you know you have in place concrete policies to disadvantage them.

It's perfectly possible that someone may have received far more disadvantages from systemic "anti-racism" than they've ever received relative advantages from purported societal racism. Some of this systemic discrimination is incredibly high-impact. Getting blocked from a job or university is possibly a much bigger deal than being treated better by some police once.

So "white privilege" is not a fair concept in a systemically "anti-racist" racially-discriminating environment where you hand out "black privilege". Your "anti-racism" is more concrete and measurable than the racism.

Now, fortunately that doesn't occur so much here, but in the US where a lot of this comes from, it blows my mind seeing explicitly race-discriminating organisations continue to talk as if their policies had no impact, and they weren't creating "black privilege".

WahineToa · 27/10/2022 09:55

So the phrase "white privilege" doesn't do justice to the complexity of life as it is experienced for many people.

Agreed. In NZ, because of colonisation, Maori come in different shades. White passing Maori don’t always pass, and will experience discrimination based on ethnicity in areas of their life but not say, walking down the street. Are they privileged? I don’t think so. They also experience other white people telling them they don’t count as Maori because they’re too light, which I’m sure most can see how damaging and horrible that is ( it was also the point of policies of assimilation to breed out ‘natives’ ). To have your ethnicity and family/whanau dismissed like this, or because if your views, is just as awful as someone making a racist comment on the street. White privilege for me, is simplistic and misused.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 27/10/2022 09:54

WahineToa · 27/10/2022 07:39

I’ll just remind everyone what they said, @WhyAmIPayingFees said earlier:
Under most circumstances I'd leap for joy at a young black woman moving into a senior government position, but she is just awful. I think it is a repugnant appointment.

This is racist.

Wanting greater black representation is not racist.

Disliking someone's views is not racist, and neither is it racist not to want people with opposing views to your own to have power.

I understand that there can be a racist expectation that people from a certain background should think a certain way... but I am unconvinced that the two points combined automatically make the statement racist.

RoyalCorgi · 27/10/2022 09:46

It's very difficult to square the idea of "white privilege" with the prejudice and discrimination that exists against Roma and Traveller communities. You could also say the same about Jewish people - they might have better outcomes (I'm not sure if anyone measures them) but they are still subject to shocking anti-Semitism.

So the phrase "white privilege" doesn't do justice to the complexity of life as it is experienced for many people.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 27/10/2022 09:30

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2022 20:56

That is certainly a group who many still think its acceptable to show overt racism towards. I've seen it on one or two horrible threads on MN, even.

Tyson Fury was trying to highlight the issue a year or two back "the last acceptable form of racism in the UK". Not sure how much traction his words got in the media.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 27/10/2022 09:24

beastlyslumber · 26/10/2022 19:36

I have to go too! I am procrastinating on MN, as per...

I don't think 'white privilege' means anything. I think it's a bullshit term used to make white people feel guilty and to accuse white people of inherent badness.

We don't live in a country where white people are privileged over non-white people in any kind of routine or systematised way. It may happen in some sub-cultural contexts. But in other sub-cultural contexts, black people may be privileged over white people, or Asian people over black people. Or some white people over other white people. And so on. The fact that we have an Asian PM reflects the redundancy of an idea like white privilege. We are not a country organised around race. We are a country organised around class, and class does not correspond to race here in any direct way.

It's not a useful concept. It's way more useful to talk about racism when it happens - because I agree, there is still racism in this country. But as we've agreed, it's not all one way. Also it is not systematic or institutionalised - again, we can see that it has largely been eradicated even from our most conservative institutions, such as the monarchy and parliament.

White people who have had no advantages in life are being told that they have white privilege and that they are inherently racist on the basis of their skin colour. I think it's insulting and racist to say a whole group of people have some inborn advantage and inherent fault. That's what I hear when I hear the term 'white privilege'.

I am going to reply very briefly.

I don't think anything on this thread has changed my views fundementally - my opinions are basically the same - I believe that white privilege is a thing and I am comfortable to have it as part of my world view. But I have been convinced that it is a concept that has little practical benefit in bringing up (ie, it's not a concept I should spend much time on or talking about, and if I do then there is little reason to suppose that bringing it up will make the world a better place) and that as a concept it is probably a lot less important than I often assume.

As an aside one example of white privilege. My understanding is that in the USA black people are very often subject to bad treatment compared to white people when being stopped / arrested. And this happens whether the arresting officer is black or white. Now it could be that it is anti-black racism from a proportion of white and black officers, but maybe "white-privilege" is a better way of looking at the benefit of being white when stopped.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/10/2022 09:19

WhyAmIPayingFees · Today 06:40
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kemi-badenoch-lgbt-trans-rights-b2210909.html

The Independent has documented Badenoch’s lfalsehoods in her first parliamentary comments in the new role, attacking Pink News. Pretty much what you’d expect from her Trumptrash playbook.

It appeared to be the other way round. Pink News had attacked her. She was asked to respond .

nilsmousehammer · 27/10/2022 09:07

DadJoke · 27/10/2022 00:13

Trans women can and do use women’s loos perfectly legally. You want that to stop, yes?

Answered that now, three times. Clearly. And asked you some questions too, also three times, which you've ignored.

So either you're not reading and just here to bore and derail, or you can't understand the answers you're repeatedly and aggressively demanding of women for your own reasons.

Take your entitlement and bore off.

Hooverphobe · 27/10/2022 08:43

I don’t have to agree with everything someone does to be absolutely delighted to see a young, black woman in government.

Shame on the racists who say she’s the “wrong type”. I don’t think Kemi’s the type to be told to “stay in her lane” anyway.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2022 08:11

Some really interesting discussion in this thread. And some utter derailing nonsense, too, but that’s how you can tell that there are some important issues to discuss Grin

I’ll be watching what Kemi does with interest. She’s a formidable, bright, talented woman, with some views that align with mine, and some that do not. I’ve no interest in demonising her or valorising her either, and I get so despondent about and bored of simplistic “you’re for us, or agin’ us” narratives.

And toilet chat. So very, very bored of disingenuous toilet chat.

Musomama1 · 27/10/2022 08:00

Kemi criticising Pink News (who would dismantle women's rights, trans all asking children and have all manner of shit in schools) makes me admire her more.

She may be right wing but she's in a great role for her, she is unapologetically not going to take any crap, let's hope we see some real change and / or at least MSM conversations about all this. Having these conversations publicly might make the difference to Labours stance.

And the lefties? Jez Corbyn wrote an utterly tone deaf tweet re Kemi. It's like the left intentionally don't give a shit about reading evidence like the Cass Report.

FernlovingNodosaur · 27/10/2022 07:52

WahineToa WhyAmIPayingFees Simply doesn't like the fact that, that this is high achieving intelligent black women dares to have her own mind and isn't going to be used as a tool to promote people, (who are on the whole had a lot more privileged than Kemi's) self serving agenda's.

WahineToa · 27/10/2022 07:39

I’ll just remind everyone what they said, @WhyAmIPayingFees said earlier:
Under most circumstances I'd leap for joy at a young black woman moving into a senior government position, but she is just awful. I think it is a repugnant appointment.

This is racist.

WahineToa · 27/10/2022 07:35

Morning everyone @WhyAmIPayingFees made racist comments about Kempire a few pages back.

@WhyAmIPayingFees why are you coming back to this thread after you’ve been so horribly racist? Why is a racist on these boards?

AutumnsCrow · 27/10/2022 07:28

TheBiologyStupid · 27/10/2022 02:07

This! And please read the relevant section of the Equality Act - I posted the link for you earlier in this thread.

Maybe Dadjoke has the Stonewall version on his shelf.

It's like those sanitised "children's Bibles" of yore - here's how we wish it looked, kids. We've taken all the difficult bits out for you.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 27/10/2022 07:27

She said that the CEO of PN used Twitter to attack MPs. Not much to disagree with or object to there.

You won’t find many fans of Pink News here.

Signalbox · 27/10/2022 07:25

WhyAmIPayingFees · 27/10/2022 06:40

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kemi-badenoch-lgbt-trans-rights-b2210909.html

The Independent has documented Badenoch’s lfalsehoods in her first parliamentary comments in the new role, attacking Pink News. Pretty much what you’d expect from her Trumptrash playbook. .

Awww poor Pink News. Such a shame that someone has misrepresented them.

FernlovingNodosaur · 27/10/2022 07:22

WhyAmIPayingFees Not agreeing with the Prick news makes me appreciate her all the more. And America's actual women are doing really well now under Joe Biden left aren't they?
I have met quite a few left wing misogynists' as well as right wing ones. The only difference between the two is, the left leaning ones still think they are the "good guys and act like they are.

Asdavaluesausage · 27/10/2022 07:07

So she’s not allowed to call out a magazine which routinely vilifies women, and has a hate campaign against JKR. Why? Because it’s an LGBT magazine. Would you be this upset If she called out any other newspaper or magazine?

WhyAmIPayingFees · 27/10/2022 06:40

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kemi-badenoch-lgbt-trans-rights-b2210909.html

The Independent has documented Badenoch’s lfalsehoods in her first parliamentary comments in the new role, attacking Pink News. Pretty much what you’d expect from her Trumptrash playbook. .