Public Consultation - Interim Service Spec for Specialist Gender Dysphoria Services for Children/Young People

It's an absolutely stinking thread - she gives blistering comment on 🦊

I’m particularly pleased to note that children who are taking drugs they’ve got online are recognised as needing safeguarding intervention.

The fox killer interprets this as children who are too poor to afford the Webberleys will be taken into care.

The NHS can't or won't treat young people with gender dysphoria. The wealthy can pay for private care abroad. Those who can't afford that will be taken into care.

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1583364606755753984?cxt=HHwWgMDS-ZDunvkrAAAA

The push for some of things things seems to be from adults. Why? What do they gain from having children subvert social conventions?

It helps the adult males with that condition that we're not allowed to mention. It helps their argument that it's not a fetish because children have the same condition, and their motives are obviously not sexual.

I can't see any definition of 'gender identity' in those documents. We really need a definition of this.

Coincidentally, I have spoken to my MP this morning about gender identity in relation to the statutory guidance on RSE. She didn’t know what the “facts and law” about gender identity were either, so is writing to the minister responsible to ask for something impartial and substantial (akin to a subject specification) that schools can rely on. I will update with the minister’s response (if I get one).

This document does seem much better than anything we’ve seen before. Not perfect, but sufficient to drastically reduce the amount of irreversible medical treatment of children. I’m particularly pleased to note that children who are taking drugs they’ve got online are recognised as needing safeguarding intervention. I mean, it’s pretty bloody obvious that a child (or their parents) buying medication online to circumvent UK rules is at risk of harm, but at least that is finally being publicly acknowledged.

I get it about letting kids wear what they want but I'm not happy about "gender neutral" uniforms ie boys wearing skirts. We can't all just do what we like all the time. I can't wear what I'd like to work because slippers, joggers and an old t-shirt are not professional.

The push for some of things things seems to be from adults. Why? What do they gain from having children subvert social conventions?

I don't think they're the same then. This one home educates! But lots of rants on posts and stories at the moment about all the haters getting at Mermaids and "trans children".

I know it's been said so many times on here but even if you believe there is such a thing as a "trans child" and that yours is one, why wouldn't that make you fight for them to receive evidence based care and demand rigorous safeguarding from the organisations engaging with them?

Incidentally, they also covered this today, so it's possible that matters relating to this topic might get coverage this weekend. Possible, though maybe a low possibility:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11338631/MPs-warn-colleagues-avoid-backing-Penny-Mordaunts-leadership-bid-view-trans-issues.html

I feel like it's Groundhog Day!

Mail coverage, quite long:

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11341001/NHS-discourage-social-transitioning-gender-questioning-children.html

Incidentally, they also covered this today, so it's possible that matters relating to this topic might get coverage this weekend. Possible, though maybe a low possibility:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11338631/MPs-warn-colleagues-avoid-backing-Penny-Mordaunts-leadership-bid-view-trans-issues.html

TRANS LED HEALTHCARE IS THIS BEAUTIFUL VISION:

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

Is this related to the Tavistock closing?

How can they possibly 'analyse' anything? They haven't even read the fucking Cass Report! Healthcare is outwith their remit! They have no fucking idea, they said so themselves.

twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1583514952190816258?s=21&t=-jvG2dFsm3zpp8HiTd42iQ

Sonia has written a thread on the consultation.

It's good to see all these organisations showing themselves up. Not just Mermaids.

i am aware of a 'mummy blogger' who has a 'trans child' and seems to have fully (not only socially but very publicly) transitioned their very young child and I find it incredibly disturbing that no professional has stepped in and raised considerations such as these.

If it's the same one I am thinking of they're also doing a PhD and publishing various papers about trans children in schools.

Also v in with Webberly.

Social transition includes changing names and pronouns, or the way a person presents themselves.

So a stereotypical opposite sex name, presentation which is stereotypical of the opposite sex and a demand from others to use opposite sex pronouns when the person isn't there.

All patients deserve to be able to present themselves as they wish, and to have safe, outcome-neutral discussions about their identities. Arbitrarily restricting personal choices like name and gender presentation isn’t just harmful and unenforceable in practice, it runs uncomfortably close to conversion practices.

Has anyone actually suggested that people who identify as transgender should be restricted in their style of dress or choice of name? Why do they call this 'gender presentation'? I thought being transgender was nothing to do with gender stereotypes (although without the stereotypes, what does 'transgender' mean?)

Learnt a new word from that Twitter thread cishetropatriarchy! Lots of please for trans led care. What does that even mean? Does it mean no doctors? Or that the doctors have to be trans? And yes I am totally against children being taken for private care particularly abroad.

I'm all for children wearing what they want, having their hair how they like (as in the 1980s) but they should not be labelled trans, that is social transition. Let kids explore their whole identity.

I've not looked at it yet but thanks for the heads up on the use of gender identity.

I've also shared with the local women I meet. We will have a discussion on this and each make a response.

Gendered Intelligence have responded. Social transitioning is beneficial AND harmless AND reversible, and this area should be led by patients, they say:

"There is also a perverse, completely needless pathologisation of social transition. Social transition includes changing names and pronouns, or the way a person presents themselves. Not only is it both harmless and reversible, it actually benefits young people to be able to safely explore their identities in this way."

And:

"the proposed specification seems to discourage doctors from a patient-led response, instead suggesting they put up further unnecessary barriers to social transition. All patients deserve to be able to present themselves as they wish, and to have safe, outcome-neutral discussions about their identities. Arbitrarily restricting personal choices like name and gender presentation isn’t just harmful and unenforceable in practice, it runs uncomfortably close to conversion practices. That this is even being considered by NHS England is dangerous."

genderedintelligence.co.uk/latest/servicespecs-211022.html

twitter.com/genderintell/status/1583489774500782080?s=46&t=I_Q8DNlWS74Onoj7rTjWBQ

God Maugham is such an irresponsible insufferable man.

Some terms aren't defined. And in the impact assessment they need to reconsider the impact on gay young ppl if they get this wrong. There is some evidence that same sex attracted ppl are over represented in this cohort co.paref to the general population so that is a group who could be impacted.

The starting point of psychlogical help not medical intervention is sensible. Caution about social transition is good. If a child's already socially transitioned it says they will be non judgemental and watchful. That might be the right approach but will it leave the therapist feeling like they daren't take the exploration to anywhere that could lead the child to change their mind about that in case they are accused of conversion? Will it fence off whole areas of exploratory therapy?

It's very different from they way this was talked about when I first started looking into this in 2018. Then it seemed like a weird and ideological enclave of medicine where the normal medical approaches and standards didn't enter the room. This document is written mostly in straight forward clinical language and they are trying to embed the service in normal paediatric care which is good.

The outrage from mermaids & co suggests they feel like they are on the outside screeching about it & have lost their ability to set the agenda or indluence it. That in itself is a good sign of change. But I imagine they with drum up lots of critical responses, so it's not a done deal yet.

Note his transformation of "trans children" to "trans people" in one swift move. Because if you ignore age, ability to give informed consent and the rights of children to develop free from the attention of adults with an agenda, then you can also ignore the requirement to safeguard children which is terribly helpful for certain predominantly male groups.

Thanks, OP. Will definitely be filling this in and sharing.

"I hear you're an expert now". Or something along those lines

twitter.com/mermaids_gender/status/1583430712480305153?s=46&t=vXeqZxyGZqPaTdCWWglg7w

"We have seen the consultation published by NHS England yesterday on the interim service specification for the new Early Adopter services, who will deliver gender services for children and young people from Spring 2023. (1/2)

On initial review, many of the proposals are seriously concerning. We will be further analysing the content, and formulating a robust response with views from our service users. (2/2)"

I can't see any definition of 'gender identity' in those documents. We really need a definition of this. What is a 'gender identity' and how can it be objectively assessed or observed? With no definition and no way of objectively assessing an individual's 'gender identity', how do we know that people who say they have a feminine 'gender identity' are all experiencing the same thing?

And in what ways is a 'gender identity' expected to 'align with their biological sex'?

I am re-reading it but I would urge some caution as it does contain the term "gender identity" a few times. E.g. up front it says:

"The Service will provide multidisciplinary assessment and care to children and young people and their families who will benefit from clinical support around the development of their gender identity, and interventions in response to a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and consultation and support to local professionals"

And this is at odds with the terminology, it would seem that this should be:

“clinical support around the exploration of their gender incongruence”

as per the Terminology section on p3, Section 6: Population, which says:

"This service specification will refer to gender incongruence and gender dysphoria. The terms are not interchangeable. Gender incongruence is where the individual’s experience of their gender identity does not align with their biological sex. Gender dysphoria is present when the gender incongruence causes clinically significant levels of distress to the individual. Not all individuals with gender incongruence will experience dysphoria"

So why is that so clear up front but then there is seemingly a mix of terms in the rest of the document?

This must not be a Trojan horse for “gender identity”, which of course relies on "development of" type-language. If we have a situation in which "gender identity" becomes the language, it will carry on elsewhere which is what we are seeing with self-ID in wider settings. It was what was in the so-called conversion therapy consultation where, had it gone through, it would have begun getting onto the statute books.

"Gender identity" is also under the "assessments" section e.g.:

"Subjective sense of the child / young person’s identity over time
Their expression of gender identity across different contexts over time and different settings...
Exploration of parent/carer and family views on the child or young person’s gender identity journey and family support"

It is in other places. Each of these needs careful assessment before comments are made on the consultation.